Do You Ever...

Do You Ever...

This is a discussion on Do You Ever... within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Find yourself prepping a HD or SD scenario in your head? Last Sunday I was sitting in the front row as I was a participant ...

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  1. #1
    Member Array OperatorJ's Avatar
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    Do You Ever...

    Find yourself prepping a HD or SD scenario in your head? Last Sunday I was sitting in the front row as I was a participant in the worship service that particular evening. As I was sitting there, I found myself thinking about what I would do if someone (or multiple assailants) walked in through the lobby doors to the auditorium. I was relating my position, distance to the doors, reaction time, verifying the threat, recognizing non-threats, planning out engaging multiple targets and where they would most likely be at a given time-into-scenario, process of standing and clearing holster, which gun to grab first, reminding myself where my spare mags were, etc etc to the possible scenarios. Am I paranoid or just prepared? I've found myself doing this more and more lately and in lots of places (in the mall with the family, standing in line at Subway getting some lunch the other day, etc). Yes, I should have been focusing on the worship service, and I do feel bad about that, but do you ever find yourself doing this (anywhere, doesn't have to be at church)? I just happen to know that I am one of only a couple people (out of about 170) that carry at church (for now), so I feel responsible for the security of the congregation to an extent.

    This also brought up some other thoughts and questions for the church scenario:
    What if the assailants didnt make themselves obvious when they first came in? In other words, what if they came in not bearing guns and just sat down for a while. They could be anywhere in the auditorium then. How would that change my plan?

    Would it be better to quickly engage the BGs or to wait until they separate and ambush the lead guy as he walked past. I could probably get off 2 quick shots from a seated position taking out the first BG as he headed to the front of the auditorium (safety clarification - I sit right next to the main center aisle, so I would not be shooting past any friendlies) and then engage the rest as they tried to move about.

    What if they took hostages? The people at my church are very close and taking someone hostage would be just like putting a gun to my wife's head. Would you ever lie down your gun? Lie down your primary and wait for a good opportunity to pull your BUG?

    So... paranoid? Or prepared?

    J


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    In regards to paranoid or prepared, I think the former leads to the latter.

    When I first started carrying as a private citizen, I thought about these scenarios all the time. I still think it's a worthwhile excercise, but I find that I only think about them in threads such as these. I relate it to sports - If a quarterback throws a football to me, what I'm going to do next will depend on the preperation that I have done up until that moment. All of the time studying the plays, knowing my teammates, hours and days of practice, all of it comes into play and I'm not going to be actively thinking about any of it at the moment. Real life happens quickly and has often has too many variables to anticipate. It's just going to happen, and the outcome will depend on my training up until that moment. My paranoia of failure lead to preperation for success.

    Okay, back to the scenario. 'Looking forward to the responses.
    __________________________________
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    Senior Member Array Inspector71's Avatar
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    If I found myself sitting in church with all those thoughts racing thru my head, I would just stay at home and watch football or the race and enjoy a few cold ones. Life is too short.
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  4. #4
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OperatorJ View Post
    ... I just happen to know that I am one of only a couple people (out of about 170) that carry at church (for now), so I feel responsible for the security of the congregation to an extent.
    ...

    So... paranoid? Or prepared?

    J
    You are NOT responsible for the security of the congregation to ANY extent. Unless those are your assigned duties within the church.

    I understand your feelings about the congregation... But, how well do you really know them..? If an assailant were to come in armed and dangerous... and you "capped him" before (or perhaps even after) he harmed or killed anyone, how would your brethren feel about that? Would they wonder if maybe the pastor could have talked him down, that you didn't act prematurely, and so on? Do you really know that?

    Sure, I assess an environment as I am entering, looking for relative safety, accessibility etc.. But I don't play "what if" everywhere I go. I am not in "condition white" or whatever you choose to call it. I just go about my business like normal people do. I am more aware, certainly.

    But carrying a weapon is an everyday thing for me... no big deal... It's there if I need it. but I do not let my life revolve around it, or around the potential uses for it that may occur. I play the scenario game occasionally... But those scenarios just sharpen the mind for the time, if it ever comes, that I may need to use my SD weapon.

    Your permit does not make you an undercover LEO, superhero, or defender of innocents (except for you and yours). You are not the advance team for Secret Service, you do not have to make sure that everybody is safe.

    A bit more than prepared, IME.
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    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

  5. #5
    Member Array OperatorJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    You are NOT responsible for the security of the congregation to ANY extent. Unless those are your assigned duties within the church.

    I understand your feelings about the congregation... But, how well do you really know them..? If an assailant were to come in armed and dangerous... and you "capped him" before (or perhaps even after) he harmed or killed anyone, how would your brethren feel about that? Would they wonder if maybe the pastor could have talked him down, that you didn't act prematurely, and so on? Do you really know that?

    Sure, I assess an environment as I am entering, looking for relative safety, accessibility etc.. But I don't play "what if" everywhere I go. I am not in "condition white" or whatever you choose to call it. I just go about my business like normal people do. I am more aware, certainly.

    But carrying a weapon is an everyday thing for me... no big deal... It's there if I need it. but I do not let my life revolve around it, or around the potential uses for it that may occur. I play the scenario game occasionally... But those scenarios just sharpen the mind for the time, if it ever comes, that I may need to use my SD weapon.

    Your permit does not make you an undercover LEO, superhero, or defender of innocents (except for you and yours). You are not the advance team for Secret Service, you do not have to make sure that everybody is safe.

    A bit more than prepared, IME.
    I understand, and agree. Let me add that much of my blood and in-law family also attends there, so there are in fact many family members there. That being sad, no, I do not have an "official" capacity as a security guard or whatever; BUT, my preacher knows I carry (and supports it - a direct quote when we went shooting and he found out I have a Texas CHL - Preacher: "Do you carry during services" ME: "Yes" Preacher: "Good, I'm glad someone does!"), the elders know I carry and support it, and several of my close friends and shooting buddies know I carry as well. Also, I have been consulted by the church (preacher and elders) on security for the facility during and outside of worship services, based on my military experience. Regardless, I am not trying be a hero or anything, I am simply trying to protect my family and extended family. In any given scenario, I am protecting my wife, son, and daughter first, but by virtue of protecting them, I am also protecting my extended family there.

    J

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    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OperatorJ View Post
    I understand, and agree. Let me add that much of my blood and in-law family also attends there, so there are in fact many family members there. That being sad, no, I do not have an "official" capacity as a security guard or whatever; BUT, my preacher knows I carry (and supports it - a direct quote when we went shooting and he found out I have a Texas CHL - Preacher: "Do you carry during services" ME: "Yes" Preacher: "Good, I'm glad someone does!"), the elders know I carry and support it, and several of my close friends and shooting buddies know I carry as well. Also, I have been consulted by the church (preacher and elders) on security for the facility during and outside of worship services, based on my military experience. Regardless, I am not trying be a hero or anything, I am simply trying to protect my family and extended family. In any given scenario, I am protecting my wife, son, and daughter first, but by virtue of protecting them, I am also protecting my extended family there.

    J
    This certainly clarifies things...

    Your original post did not.

    So, now, IME, you are a bit more on the prepared end of the teeter totter.

    We all know things can happen any time and anywhere... and it is good to be prepared. But, the problem I see with scenarios that we play out on our own, and in our own heads, can lead to things not going the way we planned... so it's great to ask for input on different ways to handle the same scenario, and file them away for future use.
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

  7. #7
    Member Array ConcealedG30's Avatar
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    Its good to be prepared and even a slight bit paranoid. If you have mutiple assailaints with multiple weapons I hate to say it, but I think your screwed. If you take out one of them no matter which one the other two, or more assailaints aren't worried about hurting or killing any innocent by standers because as far as they are concerned there aren't any. I believe you would have to wait to fight another day depending on circumstances. If they only want money in that situation give it to them, thats not something I normally would say but if I start shooting I have just turned on something I can't turn off. There is no right or wrong answer it all depends on many variables.

    The above is said by a guy that if you pulled a knife on me and politely asked for my money I would not so politely end your life if at all possible. Its the only way I see to clean the streets of murders, rapist, pedaphiles, and thieves. It also make it a one sided story.
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    Anticipation of Death is Worse Than Death Itself.
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  8. #8
    Member Array OperatorJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    This certainly clarifies things...

    Your original post did not.

    So, now, IME, you are a bit more on the prepared end of the teeter totter.

    We all know things can happen any time and anywhere... and it is good to be prepared. But, the problem I see with scenarios that we play out on our own, and in our own heads, can lead to things not going the way we planned... so it's great to ask for input on different ways to handle the same scenario, and file them away for future use.
    My apologies for leaving out some details... my lunch break was ending soon and wanted to get that thought posted before I decided to start working again

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    Ex Member Array MadMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OperatorJ View Post
    I understand, and agree. Let me add that much of my blood and in-law family also attends there, so there are in fact many family members there. That being sad, no, I do not have an "official" capacity as a security guard or whatever; BUT, my preacher knows I carry (and supports it - a direct quote when we went shooting and he found out I have a Texas CHL - Preacher: "Do you carry during services" ME: "Yes" Preacher: "Good, I'm glad someone does!"), the elders know I carry and support it, and several of my close friends and shooting buddies know I carry as well. Also, I have been consulted by the church (preacher and elders) on security for the facility during and outside of worship services, based on my military experience. Regardless, I am not trying be a hero or anything, I am simply trying to protect my family and extended family. In any given scenario, I am protecting my wife, son, and daughter first, but by virtue of protecting them, I am also protecting my extended family there.

    J
    We had a saying when I was in the service: never crap in your own mess kit.

    As a member of the congregation, I would in no ways be "consulting" on security issues with my home church, regardless of what you did in the military. If the pastor/board wants a security plan/blueprint/advice, they should hire a specialist, and pay for a professional's consulting advice.

    I work as a consultant, and doing freebies for friends is NEVER a good idea. I know you are likely not a security consultant, but if something bad goes down, you may lose the trust and respect of friends and relatives over something you aren't even responsible for.

    When friends/church pastor/relatives ask me for my expertise on my consulting subject matter, I show them where they can get the help they need. I do my job for money, not fun, and I don't do freebies. You wouldn't ask an MD you invited for dinner to diagnose a lesion on your arm during dessert, would you? If you do, you're a schmuck.

  10. #10
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    "So... paranoid? Or prepared?"

    If they were really there, you're not paranoid. If they weren't, well....

    And, no, I don't go around imagining little shoot-out scenerios.
    Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... Buffalo Springfield - For What It's Worth

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    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    I'm all for being prepared and I understand the way you are thinking, but there's a lot more to this than simply imagining scenarios. It can be a helpful process as long as we're honest with ourselves and don't imagine ourselves doing more than we're actually capable of, which leads to the negatives. My first question here is how much training do you have and how much do you understand active shooters? If the answers aren't "A ton" and "I study active shooters regularly", there's a good chance taking action will get you killed, at a minimum. Unfortunately, not taking action with an active shooter will likely result in a high death toll. Now, this also then leads us to the need to understand active shooters.

    There's a huge difference between some crazy guy holding everyone hostage at the gas station where his ex girlfriend works, the guy taking hostages at a bank while believing they're in negotiations and the man that walks into a church (or other place where he expects many defenseless victims) on a mission to kill. The difference between the first two and the third is that any killing is usually a byproduct of their goal and they want to walk out alive, where the third's main goal is the killing and most likely does not expect to walk out alive. This is a very important distinction, and there are new SOP's for handling the active shooter. With the active shooter, secure the location and wait becomes enter and eliminate.

    Most likely, a gunman in a church is an active shooter. So, my question to you is do you have the mindset and training (a CHL class IS NOT training, neither is a weapons manipulation class, really) to handle this situation? I want you to look at this situation for what it is and truly assess your abilities. If you do not have the training to handle this situation, as much as I hate to say it, the wisest thing you could do would be to grab your wife/kids and get out any way you can. If you have advanced training and work at it on a very regular basis, you may still want to consider getting out, but if that's not an option, then at least you are better equipped to handle the situation.

    My advice for you here, and everyone really, is to train as often as you can with the best instructors you can find. Research mindset for yourself and how to develop a fighting mindset and also the mindset of criminals, especially active shooters - which are nothing more than local terrorists, if you ask me. Now, when it comes to training, this goes beyond weapons handling and drills, and comes down to tactics. There are a few instructors who will teach tactics, but you usually need at least some other classes first, which is worth it in my opinion. Plus, they'll not want to go over weapons handling, manipulation and malfunction clearance when the class is about tactics.

    Sorry to vere off with this stuff, but when people start talking scenarios and how they'd like to handle them, I all but cringe. There are a lot of bad people out there who's only goal in life is to inflict as much pain to others as possible. Unfortunately, there's a chance we'll be the ones that are there when this happens and we have three choices… run, completely freeze or fight. If we choose to fight, we better be trained as people will be running in every direction in front and behind both you and the bad guy. You need to learn how to close a fight in a crowded area. You need to understand that you may very well be shot during the process but that does not mean you are out of the fight. See where I'm going with all of this?

    My suggestion at this point with the little info I have from reading the topic would be to send an email to Grant (C4iGrant on M4carbine.net) at G and R Tactical.com and ask him about how to set up security for your church. He attends a very large church and has an armed security team on site ready to respond to any situation. Some of the guys are LE, some are military and some are civilians, but all have extensive training. He's always willing to help, especially with this type of situation, but first speak with you pastor if that's something he'd be interested in doing for his/your church.

    So, as extreme as this stuff may seem, it's the only way to ever be even partially ready for an active shooter in a church. If this seems a bit too much and time consuming, my advice would be to turn and run if that horrible day ever comes because without serious training, you put yourself and others at risk.

    It's a valid question and definitely a concern with the kinds of attacks we're seeing lately. So, even though some may look at it as paranoid, who's to say your next church outing won't be the next Norway? I would not imagine any more scenarios. Allow an educated, experienced instructor set those up and run you through them. Unless you've been through these types of situations, you really can't have any idea of what to even think about, if that makes sense.

    Good luck and thanks for the topic. ETA - My comments here aren't intended to say you aren't capable in any way and that your military career isn't important, these are just two very different things and military training, unless very specialized, is nowhere near sufficient to handle these situations unfortunately, but are at least a very good starting point. It will also help you get into the more specialized classes bypassing the need for the lower level stuff. Feel free to contact me if you need any guidance to the right places. I work in firearms training, close protection and consulting.
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

  12. #12
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    I gave up day dreaming years ago....
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  13. #13
    Ex Member Array MadMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonconsiglio View Post
    Most likely, a gunman in a church is an active shooter. So, my question to you is do you have the mindset and training (a CHL class IS NOT training, neither is a weapons manipulation class, really) to handle this situation? I want you to look at this situation for what it is and truly assess your abilities. If you do not have the training to handle this situation, as much as I hate to say it, the wisest thing you could do would be to grab your wife/kids and get out any way you can. If you have advanced training and work at it on a very regular basis, you may still want to consider getting out, but if that's not an option, then at least you are better equipped to handle the situation.

    My advice for you here, and everyone really, is to train as often as you can with the best instructors you can find. Research mindset for yourself and how to develop a fighting mindset and also the mindset of criminals, especially active shooters - which are nothing more than local terrorists, if you ask me. Now, when it comes to training, this goes beyond weapons handling and drills, and comes down to tactics. There are a few instructors who will teach tactics, but you usually need at least some other classes first, which is worth it in my opinion. Plus, they'll not want to go over weapons handling, manipulation and malfunction clearance when the class is about tactics.
    Not sure who you keep preaching to on this subject, but I doubt even 1% of concealed carriers will ever look to take advanced coure on tactics and dealing with active shooters on a rampage. In fact, I'll bet that number is pretty close to the number of LEOs with that training. I'll wager most concealed carriers simply want a last-resort tool to (preferably) scare off a couple hoodlums in a dark alley, or chase off some lurking creep at the ATM. Women want and "equalizer" during their trips around town to use on rapists, muggers and other ne'er-do-wells.

    Life is short and troubles are many. The likelihood some middle-aged suburbanite like me is going to need to deal with an active shooter like Columbine or VA Tech are so minuscule, my training and preparation resources are far better spent working out at the gym to stave off health problems that will far more likely claim my life long before some whackadoodle with lots of guns.

    Perhaps you're in the business of selling this training to civilians, and if so, I now understand where you're coming from.
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    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    I tend to look more at how to prevent scenarios than I do at what I would do if ones. Even in church I try to sit in a place where I have an advantage. Same with parking my car or walking down the street.

    Michael

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    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadMac View Post
    Not sure who you keep preaching to on this subject, but I doubt even 1% of concealed carriers will ever look to take advanced coure on tactics and dealing with active shooters on a rampage. In fact, I'll bet that number is pretty close to the number of LEOs with that training. I'll wager most concealed carriers simply want a last-resort tool to (preferably) scare off a couple hoodlums in a dark alley, or chase off some lurking creep at the ATM. Women want and "equalizer" during their trips around town to use on rapists, muggers and other ne'er-do-wells.

    Life is short and troubles are many. The likelihood some middle-aged suburbanite like me is going to need to deal with an active shooter like Columbine or VA Tech are so minuscule, my training and preparation resources are far better spent working out at the gym to stave off health problems that will far more likely claim my life long before some whackadoodle with lots of guns.

    Perhaps you're in the business of selling this training to civilians, and if so, I now understand where you're coming from.
    Nope, my point is if you can't do that then you should not be considering taking on a shooter in your church and you shouldn't be playing scenarios in your head as it can get you in a lot of trouble. Not saying this in reference to the OP here at all, but I see WAY TOO MANY with the hero thinking when these scenarios come up and that can get you killed, just like the examples I posted in another thread without proper training.

    But, if you feel that you may, you better get serious training or you will ultimately do more damage than good. I don't sell anything and I don't teach tactics to civilians…

    But then again, we could all go by your way of thinking and as long as we stay in our nice neighborhoods, there's really no reason to even carry, right? Also, glad you speak for the majority. In the last defensive situation you were in, you instinctively just knew how to handle it?
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

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