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Here is a a scenario I dreamt up for mental exercise and conversation

8K views 113 replies 51 participants last post by  F350 
#1 ·
Lets say you are traveling alone, across the northern plains states in the dead of winter. ( I know its goofy, but I got to set the scene so we are all on the same page for sake of conversation)

You're buzzing along across the nearly empty highway listening to your collection of favorite music, and the snow starts flying. Before you know it, you're caught in a blizzard. You switch from your mp3's to the radio, and sure enough, the winter storm of the century is bearing down on your route. Not knowing exactly where you are and whats around and being in your properly equipped for conditions late model 4x4 of choice, you decide to press on and out pace the storm.

The snow is getting deep, the wind is howling, temp is dropping like a rock. Its now dark out. You've got plenty of fuel, but you are in the middle of nowhere. Now, there is nobody else on the road. Radio reports state that there is a winter storm emergency, all traffic is to be off the road. Emergency services are not available, if you get into trouble you are on your own. They simply cannot reach you. The discussion on the radio is about if people get stranded, they could very well be for days- and thats if anybody knows they are even there. Cars get covered in snow and only found again in spring. You have no choice but to drive on.

As you drive along, struggling to keep on what you think is the roadway, you see a older car with Mississippi plates (lets say a 1994 Ford Escort ) off to the side of the road. The snow is already starting to cover it. You slow to a crawl to check on possible occupants as you pass and see a man inside the car. He's bundled up in just about everything he could find, trying to keep warm. His car isn't running, and his flashers are starting to dim. Being the good guy you are, you stop.

The middle aged man seems nice enough, just had a little bad luck with his car. He tells you it broke down about 45 minutes ago and he can't get it restarted. You try to help him, but you both fail at getting the car restarted. Even if you did, there is no way the car could handle the current conditions.

You offer the man a ride which he accepts. He tells you that there is an exit about 10 miles up the road with motels, restaurants and service stations. If you could get him there, he'd be most grateful. He indicates he has the ability to pay for a room, meals and help with the car. He is not destitute, just stranded.

As he stands outside of your warm vehicle, he starts taking off the multiple layers of his make shift survival layers. As he's doing this, you see his pistol tucked in his waist band.
It seems as if he inadvertently let his sweatshirt creep up over the gun as he was taking off another outer layer.

Now, be honest with yourself, even if don't want to post your honest answer.
 
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#39 ·
I find it moderately interesting that when a LEO removes a firearm from a legally ccw person for their own safety for the time of the contact, it raises the hackles on many peoples neck, yet when a legal individual is put in that situation with another (assumed) legal individual, a common thought is to disarm the guy for the duration of ones exposure to him...not pointing any fingers, as I honestly don't remember specifically who was up in arms about cops securing handguns, just thinking out loud...

Outstanding analogy and great scenario.

I do not own a car, I paid off ours and gave it to my ex, but I ride my Harleys when home weather be damned most of the time so with that being said more than once when starting a trip my primary is in it's holster as the temps drop and I add more layers it is not uncommon for me to take it out of the holster and put it into a more accessible position or make sure I can get to my BUG if I am carrying. Sounds like this guy may have done the same thing or he carries in his glove compartment and simply put it in his waistband.
As far as the car with MS plates maybe he just likes it and its paid for.

By the way a lone man from Mississippi travelling above the Mason Dixon Line would not be caught without a handgun or two, a rifle and at least two knives.
 
#40 ·
By the way a lone man from Mississippi travelling above the Mason Dixon Line would not be caught without a handgun or two, a rifle and at least two knives.
The knives might well be more of a concern in the close quarters of an automobile than any gun that you have disarmed him of. :wink:
 
#42 ·
Point #1 - At least as I understand the weather conditions and location as depicted (and after spending many lonely hours driving through very similar conditions in Nebraskas panhandle for work years ago), leaving the person to fend for themselves is akin to a death sentence. How many people realize the truth of that and how comfortable are you with it?

Point #2 - I don't have a ccw permit and have no plans to get one, I believe my "license" lies in the Constitution of the United States. And if that's what he tells me when I question him about his gun it gives me no reason to draw any inferences about why he may be armed out in the middle of nowhere in the blizzard of the century because basically, with all the known facts, there is no difference between him and I.

Point #3 - The Constitution be damned...I don't know this guy from Adam, and if he wants a ride with me, the gun is under my control for the duration...if it happened to be my neighbor Tom, who I've known for 20 years, he keeps his gun without so much as a mention.


*edit as to point No. 3* - I've just realized that there was a point in history where I would've accepted the gentleman into my car without a second thought, even knowing that he was armed as long as he didn't raise any other suspicions. This would've been due mostly to my belief in point #2 and the times as they were then...I miss those days...now I'm sad...and I feel old...
 
#44 ·
I see this scenario as a gut feel situation, most have posted if they where LEO they would take control of a all CCers gun on sight or knowledge of it's presents. That to me is wrong.

I do lots of things by how my gut feels, if upon seeing him come out of his car I like what I see, the way he acts and looks will be how I decide if he gets a ride or not. His having the gun will play little in my choice.

I'm in the same place at the same time as he is, I have 2 guns, 2 knives and extra ammo. Does that make me a BG? Yes I know who I am and don't know anything about him, but the same is true for him.

If I'm afraid to ride with him with his gun then I'm afraid to ride with him period.


Hell he has a gun! Lets just shoot him, he has to be a threat. :confused:
 
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#46 ·
Man that's a tough one. But whether or not I give him a ride may depend on how he answeres this question. "How do you know a lot about the town and that it's about 10 miles away?" (knowing he has Mississippi plates)
 
#47 ·
I do know that people freeze to death every winter in the north after being snowbound. To pass someone by or not stop, could very well be a death sentence in the conditions "Sixto" described.

I believe I would have unholstered mine and put it in my jacket/coat pocket with my hand on it before I got out of my vehicle. In bad weather everyone walks around with their hands in their coat pockets, no big deal.

After seeing his weapon I would tell him I saw it, and I have no problem with it as long as he unloads and clears the weapon and puts it in his luggage.
Any reasonable person should be willing to do so under the conditions.

I would not let a stranger in my vehicle with a loaded weapon. Especially in blizzard conditions where your extreme concentration is needed to drive.
 
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#49 ·
All of my attention would need to be on driving, so I would ask the guy to either leave it with his car or stow it in a lock box in the bed of my truck, permit or not because I don't know him. It's a perfectly reasonable thing to ask in return for potentially saving someones butt.
 
#51 ·
I might not be answering honestly since the cat is out of the bag, but I would likely have stopped. Once I saw the firearm, I would definitely ask questions, what kind of gun, why did you choose that model, what caliber? I figure most CCW folks know the details of their firearms and would respond enthusiastically. A bad guy, maybe he would know the details, or would give inconsistant responses in polite conversation. Definitely want the details before getting into a confined space.
 
#52 ·
If he is getting into the passenger seat of my car I am much more worried about him pulling a knife on me than a handgun from his appendix. Even if he is mexican carrying, in my car I will have seconds while he struggles to get his handgun out from a seated position to draw mine from cover.

Add to the scenario:

You secure his handgun and get on your way down the road. You get to talking and your focus turns more towards the road than to your new passenger. You look over and he is opening up one of these Red
(little blade of a swiss army knife) ..... Whats your next move, if anything?
 
#53 ·
Well, either he's cool or I just got myself a bunch of new warm clothes…

- I'd have to be there and get a fee for the situation. I honestly don't know how I'd feel or what I'd do. This is definitely one of the very few scenarios ever posted on this forum that ever made me think it through and actually put myself in that situation. Good post Sixto.

Unfortunately, if this happens in the middle of a blizzard at night, there's very little time to think it through outside of the vehicle and to ask many questions.
 
#54 ·
Based on what the scenario describes, I would expect that if he were a bad guy out to do me harm he would have done so while we were distracted with trying to get his car started. If I didn't get a bad feeling about him during our initial encounter, this won't change my opinion of him. It would be a lot easier for him to simply shoot me by the side of the road and take my truck than it would be for him to get in the car and do so from the passenger seat risking a crash when the driver is incapacitated. If I spotted the gun immediately upon our encounter, my response may be different but given the scenario as described he's getting a ride. I'm not leaving someone who has posed no threat to die in a blizzard. Period.
 
#55 ·
I could never knowingly let another human being freeze to death on the side of the road. No matter who it is. For me life is a series of chances taken. OK so I stop to help this guy, and I see that he's armed. First off... So am I. I know he's packing but he dont know that about me. My advantage. The suggestion to ask him to leave his gin in the trunk until we arrive to the hotel is a really good Idea. Wish I had thought of it. His response to that request will say loads about his intentions.

I never take to the road without being armed at least once... usually twice. Why should I expect this guy to?

Spuk?
 
#56 ·
I'm seeing everyone's concern being the gun, the gun is not the thing of evil here, it is a tool. If there is evil in this scenario it is the man and he can kill you with any tool. Judge the man not the tool he chose to use.

Judge the man if he does not pass inspection then he does not get the ride, gun or no gun. (Yes I profile, I do every day of my life in everything I do.)

What I am seeing is, (us CCers--gun people) judging the gun as a thing of evil just like the anti-gun people.

Just like this man I carry a gun, but if there is a BG who presents evil to me it is not the gun he needs to fear, it is "ME" For I am the Weapon that will destroy him. If I did not use the gun it would be something else, but I will be his worse nightmare.
 
#58 ·
Beg to differ... not a matter of the gun at all... the gun does add to the general feel of the guy, and it was I and someone else who said it's a "gut feel" kind of thing... And a good psychopath would kill us both... but most folks ain't that... if my "profile" of him feels right, he's getting a ride... armed is okay.. if it's hinky.. well, he'll get a ride... but he's gotta do it unarmed... of at least the gun i saw...
 
#57 ·
I'd have him unload the weapon and store it in the glove box if he wants a ride. I don't know him from Adam. If he were a nut, he'd probably have killed me. If he's like most of us, I'd expect him to say "ok, better than freezing." I'd try to position myself with cover (e.g., around the side of the vehicle) and ask him in the most easy way possible.

I used to live in the Dakotas. People will stop for another under those conditions, especially if its an out-of-stater that probably doesn't know what he's gotten himself into.

Good scenario. A look in the mirror, if you will....
 
#60 ·
Being that he is about to get into the car after being outside where he could have shot me in the head and kicked some snow over me and I wouldn’t be found till spring, I am thinking it will be ok.
I would ask what he is packing just to get a response out of him, and go from there. It would make me think why he is out here in a MS plated car.
 
#61 ·
What I am seeing is, (us CCers--gun people) judging the gun as a thing of evil just like the anti-gun people.
I have two points of disagreement with this concept:

1 - Until I became, albeit ever so slightly more knowledgeable about gun ownership and decided to get my CC permit, the site of the weapon on the guy would have been truly frightening to me. Without a different frame of reference, I would have had zero understanding of what it would take for someone to legitimately posses one, let alone even know what questions to ask to see if he is in the good or bad guy camp. It isn't that I was in the 'evil anti' crowd, but in the ignorant crowd. In my mind the only conclusion I would be able to draw was that he was going to use it to play highwayman on me.

2 - The manner in which he is carrying his gun in this scenario is one that is much more typical of criminal than concealed carry. Thinking back to the article pointed to in another thread that discussed CC citizen interactions with police that received lots of "very good information" type comments. One of the key points in that article that an LEO should take note of is HOW they are carrying as a law abiding CC permit holder will almost always use a holster while a criminal won't. Rather the two most common places that a criminal will carry are the hood of their hoodie and Mexican style in their pants. This was also mentioned in Ayoob's book of Concealed Carry,

The guy in this scenario needs to be evaluated by the sum total of perceptions and that includes personal prejudices even if it is not PC to admit it. In this written description we have a limited subset of information to work with. The manner in which he is carrying is a major clue. Someone who is a legit permit holder, when confronted with the fact will very likely behave differently from someone who is not. I imagine that those who are not would probably try to draw your attention away from the fact and try to convince you "that IT (the gun) is nothing to worry about" whereas someone who has been through CC training would likely offer up their credentials just as they are required to do when approached by an LEO in most states. The reason being is that they will be more aware and have a better understanding of how they and their gun are perceived by the non gun carrying public.
 
#62 ·
2 - The manner in which he is carrying his gun in this scenario is one that is much more typical of criminal than concealed carry. Thinking back to the article pointed to in another thread that discussed CC citizen interactions with police that received lots of "very good information" type comments. One of the key points in that article that an LEO should take note of is HOW they are carrying as a law abiding CC permit holder will almost always use a holster while a criminal won't. Rather the two most common places that a criminal will carry are the hood of their hoodie and Mexican style in their pants. This was also mentioned in Ayoob's book of Concealed Carry,

The guy in this scenario needs to be evaluated by the sum total of perceptions and that includes personal prejudices even if it is not PC to admit it. In this written description we have a limited subset of information to work with. The manner in which he is carrying is a major clue. Someone who is a legit permit holder, when confronted with the fact will very likely behave differently from someone who is not. I imagine that those who are not would probably try to draw your attention away from the fact and try to convince you "that IT (the gun) is nothing to worry about" whereas someone who has been through CC training would likely offer up their credentials just as they are required to do when approached by an LEO in most states. The reason being is that they will be more aware and have a better understanding of how they and their gun are perceived by the non gun carrying public.
What I read in the OP was that you see a gun in his waistband, but did not know if it was in a holster or not. As to carry of your gun there, I EDC 2 XDs in mirror appendix carry, I therefore am a BG from the word go.

Quote
"The guy in this scenario needs to be evaluated by the sum total of perceptions and that includes personal prejudices even if it is not PC to admit it."

I agree there does need to be an evaluation of the man, but to me that needed to be done before asking him to get in and your seeing the gun.

If there is trust in the person then what he carries is of no concern. if one does not trust the person then HE is the threat not what he carries.
 
#63 ·
The "total stranger" is very likely going to freeze to death without my assistance. I would know that & so would he. He is in no position to to argue with my demands.
I go even further than taking control of that particular firearm. I frisk the guy and check him for any other weapons.
I'm completely honest about it all with the guy.

I tell him "don't take this personally" but, snow or no snow - I am quite comfortable with firearms but, not at all comfortable with armed total strangers in my vehicle on deserted roads while I am trying to concentrate on getting myself to safety.
And then he sits still in the passenger seat and stays as close to the passenger side door as possible.

My own firearm is now OUT and on my lap & if he doesn't like it he can get out and start walking.

And I don't take him up on his kind offer. I don't need him. He needs me & I am not so friendless & desperate that I need to make new highway buddies.

Do I come across as being mean & heartless? I absolutely don't care. I have loved ones that depend on my well being & I'll likely never see this guy again.

So it's my way or the highway. That is his choice.
 
#64 ·
Bill MO, I improperly used hinky... If he were truly hinky, I'm with you, I prolly would not have offered the ride in the first place. But there's hinky and there's hinky... If I got the feel he was in the least bit dangerous, I would have asked for the weapon and QK is right, my way or the highway.

Noway, you need to learn more, grasshopper! (J/K)

Many people appendix carry, some carry more than one... I Imagine BillMO as Yosemite Sam, but Sam open carries!

And, as you come to learn more on DC, You will learn. . . . . .

Some carry more than 2, and a few blades, and a baton, and mace and nightvision goggles and flakvestsfulltraumapacksgobag--- breathe ---handcuffszip tiesflashlightsninjastarskubotanstacticalpens--- breathe--- and don't ferget toothpicks. And then, what's in the car. . . I can't, I'm outta breath

By the time you load them and their gear into your vehicle, you're over weight, and DOT is gonna bust you (unless it's a 6X6, but sixto didn't give us an option for that).
 
#65 ·
Honestly, without really going thru the scenario to get the "Gut feeling" everyone is talking about. Im not sure what I would do. I wouldnt want to leave him, nor would I want him to be able to kill me. Good scenario to ponder...
 
#66 ·
I wouldn't give it a second thought. I'd watch his hands as I'm driving. He doens't know I'm armed I do I still have the element of surprise. My guess is he is an ok guy and wasn't aware his gun is showing. If he wanted your vehicle he would have already taken it. Tell him you don't drive til his seat belt is on and he will have a tough time drawing from the front of his pants with lots of clothing on and a seat belt in the way.
 
#67 ·
Some carry more than 2, and a few blades, and a baton, and mace and nightvision goggles and flakvestsfulltraumapacksgobag--- breathe ---handcuffszip tiesflashlightsninjastarskubotanstacticalpens--- breathe--- and don't ferget toothpicks. And then, what's in the car. . . I can't, I'm outta breath
When I was reading that and came across, "flakvestsfulltraumapacksgobag", my first thought was that it was some sort of flatulence filter. :danceban:
 
#68 ·
Text a friend his license plate, make/model/color and the location we are at. Tell the stranger I what I just did.

Tell him to lock it up, or take his chances in the storm. Tell him to keep his hands where I can see them at all times and not make any sudden moves.

Immediately engage in conversation to obtain more information about his character.

I hold all the cards. He can comply immediately and politely or he can take his chances with the storm.
 
#69 ·
this is a great scenario.. I'd love to see more of them like this. I would ask why he has it, what he's doing out here, and tell him to hand it over if he wants a ride
 
#70 ·
Further thinking this through, the problem I have with the "hand it over" approach is that it requires him to draw his weapon while you are anticipating that he does so. If he decides to go from the draw to shooting, you are out of time. If you are requiring a hand over, or supervised stashing of the weapon, how do you ensure that he does not shoot you? Are you doing this from a drawn down position on him?
 
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