Real Scenario just happened few hours ago

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Originally Posted by Hoganbeg

So, the internet has failed me. What, pray tell, is the rule of three stupids?

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If you would like to be safe, and not have a reason to use your ccw, follow these simple rules:

Rule of Three Stupids:

1. Don't hang out with stupid people,
2. Don't go to stupid places, and
3. Don't do stupid things.

People don't normally borrow money from some goombah at a 30 - 50% vig for their kid's college tuition, or to make a down payment on their dream home. Here's the Big 3 for using a loan shark: gambling, drugs, sex. Feel free to prove me wrong.

The shark can't impact your credit score, nor go to court to get you to repay the principal and the vig, so he has on his payroll a large, usually armed, fellow whose job it is to ensure you have the proper motivation to repay your debt in a timely manner. If you were to kill this messenger - even in justifiable self-defense - you may as well assume you will die in the next couple of months. Next time you are visited by your banker's colleagues, there will be no note, no warning, and no chance for you to pull out your pea shooter. You will simply be assassinated, and whatever money and goods are in your possession will be taken to repay your loan. Sometimes, they may even encourage family members to pick up your marker - after you're dead and cannot repay.

If this unauthorized banker has been in business for a long time, you may also find the police are stumped trying to locate his operation and are regretfully unable to tie your muscular visitor back to the loan shark. So, getting on this board and saying you are in the right for shooting the collection agent, and that if you do, you'll be exonerated and then simply continue to protect yourself with your ccw is laughable Internet Tough Guy bravado.

Loan sharking is a deadly business like being a drug dealer. By engaging a loan shark, you have now entered their dark underworld, and your concealed handgun permit and appeals for justifiable self-defense are fatuous. You may also discover you are bringing innocent friends and relatives into your dark underworld. Be wary. Use the Rule of Three Stupids every day.

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and your concealed handgun permit and appeals for justifiable self-defense are fatuous.

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Just wanted to call this one out.... That is flat out a ridiculous statement. Who gives a hoot whether or not a loan shark or a "Punk" shark is wanting to kill you or not.

If you are being attacked by anyone and you are in fear for your life, you are justified in using your firearm for defense. It's not like he was in the act of committing a crime. Bottom line is simply this. Neither you nor myself are in DA's office and neither can state for the record whether it would be consider justifiable or not... My thoughts would be simply; I'll take my chances that I would be cleared because the perpetrator would not stop and I was in fear for my life, end of story..

Ah, now I see. Thanks!

The loan shark story raises a few interesting questions...

1) If the attacker really was one of the loan shark's goons, why did he stick around long enough for the police to show up?
2) If the attacker really was one of the loan shark's goons, why would he make up the whole story about taking a picture of him and his wife? Why not tell the victim why his face is being used to mop the floor? Isn't that the point of an intimidation beating?
3) Was the attacker's alleged wife in the store? Did she run up when the police took her over-protective prince charming out in cuffs?

I'm not claiming to know the whole story, but there are definitely a few things that don't add up for either argument (case of mistaken identity vs. loan shark's thug).

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Originally Posted by MadMac

If you would like to be safe, and not have a reason to use your ccw, follow these simple rules:

Rule of Three Stupids:

1. Don't hang out with stupid people,
2. Don't go to stupid places, and
3. Don't do stupid things.

People don't normally borrow money from some goombah at a 30 - 50% vig for their kid's college tuition, or to make a down payment on their dream home. Here's the Big 3 for using a loan shark: gambling, drugs, sex. Feel free to prove me wrong.

The shark can't impact your credit score, nor go to court to get you to repay the principal and the vig, so he has on his payroll a large, usually armed, fellow whose job it is to ensure you have the proper motivation to repay your debt in a timely manner. If you were to kill this messenger - even in justifiable self-defense - you may as well assume you will die in the next couple of months. Next time you are visited by your banker's colleagues, there will be no note, no warning, and no chance for you to pull out your pea shooter. You will simply be assassinated, and whatever money and goods are in your possession will be taken to repay your loan. Sometimes, they may even encourage family members to pick up your marker - after you're dead and cannot repay.

If this unauthorized banker has been in business for a long time, you may also find the police are stumped trying to locate his operation and are regretfully unable to tie your muscular visitor back to the loan shark. So, getting on this board and saying you are in the right for shooting the collection agent, and that if you do, you'll be exonerated and then simply continue to protect yourself with your ccw is laughable Internet Tough Guy bravado.

Loan sharking is a deadly business like being a drug dealer. By engaging a loan shark, you have now entered their dark underworld, and your concealed handgun permit and appeals for justifiable self-defense are fatuous. You may also discover you are bringing innocent friends and relatives into your dark underworld. Be wary. Use the Rule of Three Stupids every day.

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I tend to agree with this 100%

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Originally Posted by gottabkiddin

Just wanted to call this one out.... That is flat out a ridiculous statement. Who gives a hoot whether or not a loan shark or a "Punk" shark is wanting to kill you or not.

If you are being attacked by anyone and you are in fear for your life, you are justified in using your firearm for defense. It's not like he was in the act of committing a crime. Bottom line is simply this. Neither you nor myself are in DA's office and neither can state for the record whether it would be consider justifiable or not... My thoughts would be simply; I'll take my chances that I would be cleared because the perpetrator would not stop and I was in fear for my life, end of story..

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I just want to point this out. Yes, you may have been justified in shooting the guy in the bathroom. And may even be exonerated. But once you kill one of the loan sharks "collectors/business associate," your days are pretty much numbered.

Yes, you still have your ccw permit, but what makes you think you're going to see it coming? They may even get you during the investigation of the first shooting when the police have "temporarily suspended" your permit. That's probably not going to be a cut and dry investigation.

I have to side with MadMac on this one. They'll end up getting you in the end. I have little doubt of that.

People in general really have little very little understanding about real life organized crime in the country because it's normally something most people are untouched by. But organized crime is real, and once you insert yourself into their world by taking out a loan from some shark, you're playing by their rules now. A person's naive rationale of right and wrong simply does not figure into their equation of how things work.

I am sure that this story illustrates why police often seem so suspicious of citizens who are attacked, "with no provocation".

[QUOTE=MadMac;2030267]If you would like to be safe, and not have a reason to use your ccw, follow these simple rules:

Rule of Three Stupids:

1. Don't hang out with stupid people,
2. Don't go to stupid places, and
3. Don't do stupid things.

People don't normally borrow money from some goombah at a 30 - 50% vig for their kid's college tuition, or to make a down payment on their dream home. Here's the Big 3 for using a loan shark: gambling, drugs, sex. Feel free to prove me wrong. "



He borrowed it for his 1st month's rent at his new place. I do agree this was an extremely stupid thing for him to do, and I have told him so. I guess his hands were tied and he had no option. Still, I would never have done it.
Also, I'm not here to justify any type of shooting or argue the politics of loan sharking. I'm simply trying to update the story for those who may be interested.

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Originally Posted by SigHawk

The loan shark story raises a few interesting questions...

1) If the attacker really was one of the loan shark's goons, why did he stick around long enough for the police to show up?
2) If the attacker really was one of the loan shark's goons, why would he make up the whole story about taking a picture of him and his wife? Why not tell the victim why his face is being used to mop the floor? Isn't that the point of an intimidation beating?
3) Was the attacker's alleged wife in the store? Did she run up when the police took her over-protective prince charming out in cuffs?

I'm not claiming to know the whole story, but there are definitely a few things that don't add up for either argument (case of mistaken identity vs. loan shark's thug).

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Agreed, SigHawk. We have discussed all of these over. We may never know. The attacker has been released from jail and got on a local radio station and bragged about the assault. Of course, there was no woman present to validate his stupid claim to the police.
There truly are things that point yes and at no that this was loan sharking. I guess we'll see as this story progresses.

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Originally Posted by Bark'n

I tend to agree with this 100%



I just want to point this out. Yes, you may have been justified in shooting the guy in the bathroom. And may even be exonerated. But once you kill one of the loan sharks "collectors/business associate," your days are pretty much numbered.

Yes, you still have your ccw permit, but what makes you think you're going to see it coming? They may even get you during the investigation of the first shooting when the police have "temporarily suspended" your permit. That's probably not going to be a cut and dry investigation.

I have to side with MadMac on this one. They'll end up getting you in the end. I have little doubt of that.

People in general really have little very little understanding about real life organized crime in the country because it's normally something most people are untouched by. But organized crime is real, and once you insert yourself into their world by taking out a loan from some shark, you're playing by their rules now. A person's naive rationale of right and wrong simply does not figure into their equation of how things work.

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I wouldn't disagree with your sentiments, but again, this statement is what I was referring to by my post.

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and your concealed handgun permit and appeals for justifiable self-defense are fatuous.

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And more to the point regarding.

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fatuous

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Again, IMO it is not foolish, stupid, or silly to use your firearm for defense just because you may know the guy who's trying to kill you regardless of the reason..


Respectfully, I'll step outa this conversation as I don't want to ruffle anyone's feathers. It's just sometimes belittling statements thrown out with such seemingly broad intentions kinda ruffle my feathers...:wink:

gottabkiddin, I'm in full agreement as to the right for the victim in this case to use lethal force to repel the attack against him for what happened in the bathroom of the home improvement store. Even if he knew what it was for, because the assault on him definitely was illegal, brutal and could have resulted in death or certainly crippling injury. No doubt he has the right to use lethal force to defend against that.

However, what it appears the victim did, was get involved with a loan shark, and have business transactions with members of organized crime. And that is pretty much going to be a death sentence for the poor guy had he chose to use lethal force to defend himself in this situation.

It all goes back to the fact that the victim created the incident in the first place because of his earlier actions. The same with sleeping with other peoples wives or taking loans from loan sharks. It's all the same thing. Sometimes there are consequences which are not good and law abiding or moral people should not engage in such activities in the first place.

Again, I agree he has every right to defend himself from any attacks which come his way. But if he ends up killing one of the loan sharks henchmen, he's gonna get got. Sooner or later. He won't be able to thwart every single attempt. They'll find him someday and catch him when he has his guard down.

[QUOTE=trainercb;2030449]

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Originally Posted by MadMac

If you would like to be safe, and not have a reason to use your ccw, follow these simple rules:

Rule of Three Stupids:

1. Don't hang out with stupid people,
2. Don't go to stupid places, and
3. Don't do stupid things.

People don't normally borrow money from some goombah at a 30 - 50% vig for their kid's college tuition, or to make a down payment on their dream home. Here's the Big 3 for using a loan shark: gambling, drugs, sex. Feel free to prove me wrong. "



He borrowed it for his 1st month's rent at his new place. I do agree this was an extremely stupid thing for him to do, and I have told him so. I guess his hands were tied and he had no option. Still, I would never have done it.
Also, I'm not here to justify any type of shooting or argue the politics of loan sharking. I'm simply trying to update the story for those who may be interested.

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Well, that may or may not be true. You've already proven you don't know the facts in this sordid story, and I doubt this tidbit you're feeding us is any different. My money is still on gambling, drugs, or sex if the truth be known. I cannot imagine someone whose "hands were tied" and were forced to borrow from a loan shark for a simple rent payment. If he doesn't have the first month's rent, where the heck is he going to scare up the money to repay the loan shark and the outrageous vig that comes with it? He wouldn't even be able to pay the next month's rent. If he's such a saintly church-going youth pastor, why didn't he borrow it from the pastor or the church board? Surely they would have helped him. My church group does this kind of thing all the time.

It's simply a nonsensical story, and obviously you're on the outside trying to paint it in a way favorable to your friend.

I know you don't want or need my advice, but I'd say you need better friends if you want to stay safe. He's a Number One in the Rule of Three Stupids.

Bark'n, Yup, I can certainly concede to the points you've articulated and totally agree... I personally have never dealt, or had dealings with such individuals, so my level of understanding regarding those kinds of folks would most assuredly cause me trouble if I ever found myself somehow involved with any.. I've got it well noted to avoid such nonsense..

Thanks for taking the time to relay your thoughts and insight..:bier:

[QUOTE=MadMac;2030560]

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Originally Posted by trainercb

Well, that may or may not be true. You've already proven you don't know the facts in this sordid story, and I doubt this tidbit you're feeding us is any different. My money is still on gambling, drugs, or sex if the truth be known. I cannot imagine someone whose "hands were tied" and were forced to borrow from a loan shark for a simple rent payment. If he doesn't have the first month's rent, where the heck is he going to scare up the money to repay the loan shark and the outrageous vig that comes with it? He wouldn't even be able to pay the next month's rent. If he's such a saintly church-going youth pastor, why didn't he borrow it from the pastor or the church board? Surely they would have helped him. My church group does this kind of thing all the time.

It's simply a nonsensical story, and obviously you're on the outside trying to paint it in a way favorable to your friend.

I know you don't want or need my advice, but I'd say you need better friends if you want to stay safe. He's a Number One in the Rule of Three Stupids.

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MadMac, I find it offensive and disrespectful to portray me as making up a "simply nonsensical story," and to claim I'm trying to paint a story in favor of my friend. If I was trying to paint a pretty picture of him, do you think I would have updated the story with the realization that he was doing something extremely illegal and sketchy such as dealing with a loan shark? If I was trying to truely make him out to be a victim I could have easily not even written that.
Also, your sarcastic and blatant attacks on the reference of him being involved with the church are really starting to get old. You're right in your last paragraph when you said I didnt ask or want your advice. I really don't. I'm not here to argue my friend's character, integrity or life story. I don't even agree with what my friend did. All I'm doing is playing reporter and conveying what I'm told as the story progresses.

Thank you to everyone who is responding with constructive ideas and not self-imposed, sarcastic and condescending remarks. Obviously we know it is stupid to deal with sharks. We get it.


Where are the big guys at? Glockman? Sixto? Retsup? I'd love to hear from ya!

It's pretty obvious this scenario has gone far beyond "attacked in the restroom."

Bottom line here is that no matter what happened we are hearing it third person and we all know what happens when you play "telephone."

I think the most valuable lesson we can learn from this is to be prepared and not to make stupid decisions.