When is Enough, Enough?

This is a discussion on When is Enough, Enough? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Each person must go by their own perception and live with their decisions. As I stated previously, if I perceive it as gang on gang ...

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 41
Like Tree12Likes

Thread: When is Enough, Enough?

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Idaho
    Posts
    5,272
    Each person must go by their own perception and live with their decisions.
    As I stated previously, if I perceive it as gang on gang activity, 911 will be the extent of my involvement beyond self protection.

    BVBNHI
    helderberg likes this.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

  2. Remove Ads

  3. #17
    Member Array papahawk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Aztec NM
    Posts
    46
    I am with stubborn on this one. scenario 1 find cover call 911 then entervene, With 911 operator still on line. scenario 2 secure the Wife, If he is shooting a dead guy call 911. he points his firearm at anyone else, then we find out the ballisics of a 10mm Glasier safety slug
    MIA/POW , Bring em home or Send us back

  4. #18
    Senior Member Array Tzadik's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Suffolk, Virginia
    Posts
    609
    1) I interfere if I feel I can do so safely. I order him to drop the gun and hold him until LE arrive. I cover both people and tell them not to move.

    2) Draw my weapon out of view if possible as I get my family out safely then call 911.

  5. #19
    VIP Member Array Gene83's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Tennessee
    Posts
    2,220
    Dang Lima, you don't make these things easy, do you?

    In both cases, my conscience tells me that I should intervene...to stand by as a witness and do nothing would be wrong.

    My common sense tells me to take care of myself and my family and leave such matters to the authorities.

    But, if I was content to leave everything to the authorities, I wouldn't have a gun permit and be carrying a gun.

    So, I honestly don't know what I would do.

    I can tell you this though. Whenever the time came and the situation arose, whatever I did would be spontaneous. I wouldn't think about it before I did it. You probably wouldn't either.
    "The superior man, when resting in safety, does not forget that danger may come." ~ Confucius

  6. #20
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Outside Seattle, WA
    Posts
    3,309
    Quote Originally Posted by limatunes View Post
    Scenario 1:
    A mall lobby security video was posted some time ago of a shooting that starts outside of the mall and comes into the mall. It was a bit more elaborate but I'm going to change it just a bit. A young man falls through the lobby doors, obviously wounded and bleeding quite badly, and is laying on the floor hardly moving and in comes another young man who is trying to shoot him again. His gun is not working and he commences pistol whipping the young man on the floor. As a bystander in the mall you would not know who was at fault here but whatever the situation is it seems to have clearly gone past the point of self defense or any legal action on the part of the individual with the gun.... or has it? Would you intervene at any point?

    ?
    WHile it's likely there would be mall security around, I have no idea if they'd be any use. If they were there I would DEMAND that they act (not that they would, but I'd make sure they knew I meant it).

    My instincts would have me draw and very clearly tell the aggressor to stop and get off. If he didnt, I'd shoot. However I'd be in an extremely exposed spot, probably no cover, right in front of the doors and this sounds like a situation where the aggressor (and victim) were probably not alone. Like gang-related. I would be completely vulnerable and need to be checking outside those doors and really dont think I could protect myself against incoming shots. It would be a really tough call.

    And btw, IMO this is a very clear situation where drawing your gun and not shooting immediately would have a good chance of being successful....

    Also, I made the comments about the security guards because they cant always act, believe it or not. Here in Seattle was a famous case about 2 yrs ago where specifically employed transit security stood by and watched a group of teens beat the heck out of another teen girl. It was all on video. They just stood there, watched, then turned and walked away. Didnt even call 911.

    Their orders were (at that time) to not interfere in anything like that. I dont remember what their job was.....??...but I know the security agency said they would change those rules...after training the security people....but the agency got dropped anyway. (But I'm sure the city was aware of those rules when they gave them that contract).
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  7. #21
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Outside Seattle, WA
    Posts
    3,309
    Quote Originally Posted by limatunes View Post
    Scenario 2:
    Let's say you are out to dinner with your unarmed wife/friend/family/coworker/whomever. You excuse yourself to go to the bathroom and you hear gunshots. You rush back out to find one man standing and shooting another man sitting in a booth a few tables away from where you were and your company is currently sitting. He seems to only have one target and that is the man in the booth. He runs out of ammo, the man in the booth is not moving nor does he seem to be conscious, but the gunman does a rather slow and unpracticed reload and commences shooting the man again. Again, you do not know the circumstances, but it seems to have gone beyond any kind of justification. What, if anything, do you do?

    Thoughts?
    In this one, I would try to find real cover, draw, and focus on aiming clearly at his COM. I dont think I would shoot...too many other people around but I'd be prepared to do so if his gun started pointing ANYWHERE else.

    Trouble spots: people will see you draw and freak out more, and call attention to you. Would it be better to have my gun drawn, but low ready, hidden? Maybe because that additional attention could exacerbate the situation...but I'd be less able to get back to his COM. Depends on distance too.

    Also, what if there is no real cover? I'm not going back to hiding in the bathroom.....

    I have to say, the whole 'runs out of ammo' thing really rings a bell here. How many times have we read AND said....why didnt someone do something while he was reloading? In this situation, we have no idea what's going on but we'd still have a pissed off ARMED man in the midst of innocent bystanders. How could you live with yourself after if you let that chance go by and he started shooting others...and managed before you did stop him, if you ever did?

    I'd say in this situation as well (as scenario 1), you have the right to shoot (in my state). But it's up to you, based on your personal ethics and your training.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  8. #22
    VIP Member
    Array Mike1956's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Marion County, Ohio
    Posts
    10,463
    Both your scenarios are clear examples of felonious assault. Once a person is unable to resist, or otherwise no longer poses a reasonable deadly threat, the use of deadly force becomes unwarranted and criminal.

  9. #23
    Senior Moderator
    Array limatunes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Iowa
    Posts
    4,246
    Quote Originally Posted by Gene83 View Post
    Dang Lima, you don't make these things easy, do you?
    Nope.
    We've already gone through all of the easy stuff...lol
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    Both your scenarios are clear examples of felonious assault. Once a person is unable to resist, or otherwise no longer poses a reasonable deadly threat, the use of deadly force becomes unwarranted and criminal.
    That's pretty much the point of this thread. Even if someone started out justified they have clearly crossed the line. The question is whether or not you, as an armed citizen, would step in to do anything about it not knowing any more than what you've seen.

  10. #24
    VIP Member Array smolck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Alabama
    Posts
    3,041
    Scenario two is easier in my state. I can use my weapon to prevent a felony in progress, and murder/attempted murder is a FELONY. If he is reloading he is a threat to me, the restaurant and anyone else.

  11. #25
    Member Array kante's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Formerly OKC, OK; Currently Karlsruhe, Germany
    Posts
    78
    In my opinion:

    On scenario 1: Take cover, draw my weapon, call 911 and be a good witness. If i can see the shooter starts advancing towards me or pointing/shooting at me - return fire.
    On scenario 2: Take cover, draw my weapon, call 911 and be a good witness. If i can see the shooter starts advancing towards me or pointing/shooting at me - return fire.

    Even though that might sound egoistic, but my weapon is _my and my familys_ last line of defense! I am not a superhero, nor am i law enforcement. I got my weapon to protect me, not to protect strangers. It sucks for the person being attacked, but: If someone is threatening mine and my familys life, i will be the guy who shot someone in self defense. If i shoot an attacker who was not an immediate thread to myself, without knowing what this all was about, i will be just another person involved in the mall/restaurant shooting.

    Now, if i would see the shooter starting to shoot random people, it would depend on what else is happening. If i see a LEO stepping in or other people drawing, i will try to get the heck out of there. Otherwise - if i would have a clear shot, i would probably try to take him out.

    Like i said, i got my weapon to protect me if there is no other line of defense left. I didn't get it to protect others who chose not to protect themselves (unless i see someone going amok on general population). Even if that makes me sound like a cold hearted sob, but that's my main plan for almost every shtf-scenario and i am sticking to it ;)
    Regards, Mike

    The german american, now living in Germany, but surely missing home!

  12. #26
    VIP Member
    Array Mike1956's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Marion County, Ohio
    Posts
    10,463
    Quote Originally Posted by limatunes View Post
    Nope.
    We've already gone through all of the easy stuff...lol

    That's pretty much the point of this thread. Even if someone started out justified they have clearly crossed the line. The question is whether or not you, as an armed citizen, would step in to do anything about it not knowing any more than what you've seen.
    In both cases, armed assailants are in the process of executing defenseless people. What more do I need to know?

  13. #27
    VIP Member Array 357and40's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    St. Charles, Missouri
    Posts
    2,339
    I have a very hard time with hypothetical situations. I have never (thank God) had to draw my weapon and pray I never have to.

    If I saw that someones life was in danger I know I would at the very least, be a good witness. I would like to think I would step up & defend my fellow mans life, but I also realize that I may not know all the facts walking up on a situation.

    Is the guy I am about to draw on an undercover officer?
    Is the guy getting beaten whacked out of his mind & just killed 4 cops & keeps getting up because the PCP he took is nullifying the sensation of 5 rounds already in his chest?
    Is the presumed threat not what they appear to be?
    "I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched c-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhäuser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain."
    - Roy Batty

  14. #28
    Distinguished Member Array tcox4freedom's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    South Carolina USA
    Posts
    1,553
    I tend to fall along the same lines has Guantes in these scenarios.

    If I peceive gang related violence I'm out in "most" circumstances. But, it really depends on my proximity to the situation. If I'm too close to the shooter, my involvement could be inevitable so I would want to gain control of the situation. I would hope my SA would have been good enough to protect me. However, if I get caught too close to the altercation and I'm not likely to make to cover, I'm most likely going to attempt to control the situation to ensure my safety.

    Scenario #2 also depends on the proximity to where I am and what resources are availible. Fortunately, my wife carries as well. So, I'm looking for my wife; most likely she would've already made a move if she felt she and our children were in any danger. So, my primary cue would be taken from her. I would want to find my wife & family ASAP!

    After I do a quick assessment of where the shots originated and what is now happening in the resturaunt, I would scan for my family. My guess would be there would be some sort of panic taking place after the shooting. Depending on what "else" I see during a quick assessment will determine my actions.

  15. #29
    VIP Member Array smolck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Alabama
    Posts
    3,041
    Quote Originally Posted by 357and40 View Post
    I have a very hard time with hypothetical situations. I have never (thank God) had to draw my weapon and pray I never have to.

    If I saw that someones life was in danger I know I would at the very least, be a good witness. I would like to think I would step up & defend my fellow mans life, but I also realize that I may not know all the facts walking up on a situation.

    Is the guy I am about to draw on an undercover officer?
    Is the guy getting beaten whacked out of his mind & just killed 4 cops & keeps getting up because the PCP he took is nullifying the sensation of 5 rounds already in his chest?
    Is the presumed threat not what they appear to be?
    There was an incident a while back where a crazy man with a knife came into a grocery deli and began stabbing his wife over and over (something like 20 times) and an older man in his 60's with a CCW permit shot the man several times. No charges were filed and he saved the womans life. I would do the same. Sometimes you just have to step in, I would feel horrible if I could have prevented someones death and didn't.

  16. #30
    VIP Member
    Array Saber's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Yuma, Arizona
    Posts
    2,591
    In the abstract I may do the following.

    1st scenario: Not my problem and call 911
    2nd scenario: Fear for life is established. If I can see him, then he could see and shoot me.
    “Monsters are real and so are ghosts. They live inside of us, and sometimes they win.”
    ~ Stephen King

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Search tags for this page

call scenarios for 911 operators

Click on a term to search for related topics.