When is Enough, Enough?

This is a discussion on When is Enough, Enough? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; In the thread about the friend who got the severe beating in the bathroom there was a few posts that questioned when an individual should ...

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Thread: When is Enough, Enough?

  1. #1
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    When is Enough, Enough?

    In the thread about the friend who got the severe beating in the bathroom there was a few posts that questioned when an individual should stop a beating and how to tell who needs to be stopped.

    The immediate (and, I believe, wise) answer was that it doesn't matter who the good guy is or the bad guy, eventually there comes a point when the fight needs to stop. A lot of people expressed outrage in that thread that no one stepped in and stopped the beat-down.

    Which got me thinking and discussing some things with JD.

    In a physical beating with no weapons present there does come a pretty obvious point where a continued beating is not only no longer necessary but possibly bordering on illegal (assuming the beating was justified to begin with). Someone being rendered unconscious, start to seize, lays there in the fetal position providing absolutely no resistance, etc, are pretty good indications that the fight is over and needs to stop.

    However, is there such a point in a gunfight?

    There are two scenarios that I'd like to run as examples.

    Scenario 1:
    A mall lobby security video was posted some time ago of a shooting that starts outside of the mall and comes into the mall. It was a bit more elaborate but I'm going to change it just a bit. A young man falls through the lobby doors, obviously wounded and bleeding quite badly, and is laying on the floor hardly moving and in comes another young man who is trying to shoot him again. His gun is not working and he commences pistol whipping the young man on the floor. As a bystander in the mall you would not know who was at fault here but whatever the situation is it seems to have clearly gone past the point of self defense or any legal action on the part of the individual with the gun.... or has it? Would you intervene at any point?

    Scenario 2:
    Let's say you are out to dinner with your unarmed wife/friend/family/coworker/whomever. You excuse yourself to go to the bathroom and you hear gunshots. You rush back out to find one man standing and shooting another man sitting in a booth a few tables away from where you were and your company is currently sitting. He seems to only have one target and that is the man in the booth. He runs out of ammo, the man in the booth is not moving nor does he seem to be conscious, but the gunman does a rather slow and unpracticed reload and commences shooting the man again. Again, you do not know the circumstances, but it seems to have gone beyond any kind of justification. What, if anything, do you do?

    Things to consider:
    These do not seem like random shootings but rather centered on one individual though, of course, there is the chance that it could escalate.
    In the first scenario you have no reason to stick around if you do not want to but in the second scenario you have an assuming helpless friend within danger but you don't know what transpired to start the confrontation in either scenario.

    Thoughts?

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  3. #2
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    1st scenario. Find cover and call the PD...Im not sure who is right or wrong in that situation.

    2nd scenario.. Secure my wife, run to cover, draw pistol and call PD. Again, I know nothing about what just happened...

    In either of the scenarios, I would not want to intervene, because Im lacking the knowledge of how each started, I also have no idea what the intentions of all the individuals involved were...
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    I find the second scenario fairly easy. I don't know what caused it. It is indeed out of control but the damage has already been done by the time the angry shooter has reloaded. By then probably everyone in there has hit the deck. Be a good witness unless the guy starts to be a threat to you and yours.

    The first situation is a bit more problematic to me. There is a time to stop it, even if you don't know who started it. As compared with the first situation it looks like there is still opportunity to save a life. Of course, in both, not knowing what it is about puts you at great risk if you intervene. What if the shooter in both instances was an officer. Yes, he has gone over the line, but if you interfere guess who will get charged and pay plenty till the truth of the situation is brought forward to the DA.

    Scenarios are by their nature very situational. Tiny details, dress, body language, words uttered, can make a huge difference in perception of what is going on.
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    Situation 1. Get to cover, call the cops and witness. Only reason to intervene is if the shooter starts looking for others and you are now in danger.

    Situation 2. Get to wifey/friend, get them the he!! out of Dodge while keeping me between them and the shooter. If he starts looking at me or mine, I am prepared to react, but the primary goal is to flee. Call cops when at a safe location.

    In neither case would I turn my back on the shooter.
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    Ex Member Array apvbguy's Avatar
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    this is very simple, unless you are the one being threatened you have no obligation to get involved, we for the most part have licenses to carry a concealed gun, that does not make us leos, crimefighters or superheros so unless your life is in immanent danger get to a safe place call 911 and try to be a good witness.

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    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    From a citizen stand point, get to safety and call 911 in either scenario. From an LE point, there is a duty to act, and you have to take charge of the situation, which will probably mean the threat of Deadly force to make the person/s stop until it CSM be determined what is going on.

    Both are worst case scenarios that demand a cool head, but decisive action.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

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    Distinguished Member Array Stubborn's Avatar
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    I guess I'm the oddball here. In light of the discussions earlier about stopping a beating that has gone too far, and I was one that felt that it should have been stopped.
    Being a Florida resident, the laws here would allow me to prevent death or great bodily harm to another as myself.

    I got to say in scenario #1 I would intervene, a man on the ground shot, and bleeding badly, there is no need to pistol whip him...regardless.
    An LEO would not be behaving in such a manner. I would stop it, at gun point if necessary. If the agressor advanced toward me or tried to point his weapon at me, it would be his last mistake.

    Scenario #2 is a little different, not knowing if he has only one single victim or if this is the begining of a mass murder. My first move would be to get my wife/loved one to cover. I would draw and watch him closely, if he only continued to shoot the one (presumed dead) victim, I would not challege him.
    If he even acted like he was going to shoot someone else other than the dead man, I would open fire.

    Most all of us here have remarked at one time or another that if a CC'er were present at one of these mass murders, he could have prevented such a great loss of life. Only if he is willing to intervene, hiding and watching and calling 911 does nothing to stop the loss of life.

    I understand that living in a state with much more restrictive laws, could very well govern a different course of action for some.
    Just my $.02.
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    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    Most all of us here have remarked at one time or another that if a CC'er were present at one of these mass murders, he could have prevented such a great loss of life. Only if he is willing to intervene, hiding and watching and calling 911 does nothing to stop the loss of life.
    I would like to think that I would intervene in an attempt to save lives. However, I could not fault someone who might consider the possibilities that action on his part could impoverish his family. I could not demand that another person risk going to prison or face huge financial costs defending himself if society decides his actions were not acceptable.

    Michael
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    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Scenario 1: When I first saw this video, I felt it was gang activity, which in fact it was. IRRC it was in South America and the down individual was trying to get his own gun out of his shirt. Based on my own perception of the incident, back off and call 911. I believe that this is the video that Limatunes was referring to.

    Video: Gunmen Kill Rival in Gang Shooting at Mall - True Crime Report

    Scenario 2: First priority is the safety of my wife if that is who is with me. Specific circumstances will determine how far my intervention went beyond calling 911. If practical, I would attempt to stop it by whatever means necessary.
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    Distinguished Member Array Stubborn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlr1m View Post
    I would like to think that I would intervene in an attempt to save lives. However, I could not fault someone who might consider the possibilities that action on his part could impoverish his family. I could not demand that another person risk going to prison or face huge financial costs defending himself if society decides his actions were not acceptable.

    Michael
    I agree with you Michael. I didn't mean to imply that everyone should intervene. It is very much a personal decision, again governed by the laws of your state. Intervention most certainly should not be considered if it endangers loved ones.
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    1st scenario,by law as soon as one of the parties no longer wishes to engage in combat,or is rendered unable to defend themselves,any force after that is criminal doesn't matter who started it,I'm not gonna stand by and let somebody beat a defenseless person in what I would consider deadly force,thank god in Tx we have laws that allow me to come to the aid of a third party,
    Scenario #2 same deal once the shootee becomes incapacitated anything further is murder,there is an Oklahoma Pharmacist that discovered you can't shoot a defenseless robber and claim self defense at trial
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    Distinguished Member Array kelcarry's Avatar
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    Hey Y'all: Almost all answers are right on and it makes me feel good about being on this forum and reading responses that mimic my response. If it become "personal" and involves you and your family and friends it becomes obvious that you respond in kind. Alter Ego is a state by state law with the danger that you can never be sure who is doing what and who is really in danger and who is really responding in self defense. The law sounds good on paper but you had better be right before your act. 911 and being a good witness will always serve you well.

  14. #13
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlr1m View Post
    I would like to think that I would intervene in an attempt to save lives. However, I could not fault someone who might consider the possibilities that action on his part could impoverish his family. I could not demand that another person risk going to prison or face huge financial costs defending himself if society decides his actions were not acceptable.

    Michael
    This is so right....Very well put..

    The bold section is the very reason. I would love to jump in and save the day, I think most would, it really is the right thing to do, but in todays climate its not a smart thing to do. That really is a sad thing..
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

  15. #14
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    I can see this being a significant factor, especially for those in states without civil protection for actions deemed justified.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

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    Senior Member Array Dadsnugun's Avatar
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    I guess I'm another "odd man out"...not unusual for me.

    A lot of folks seem to assume that just because they are not the current object of the attack, that they are not under threat, my opinion is that if anyone uses a firearm to attack another human being in my vicinity, I and my loved ones (if there) are under direct threat simply due to our proximity to the attacker. We remain under direct threat until that threat is neutralized.

    That being said...

    scenario number 1: Is there cover and how near am I to the threat? If there is cover and I am a reasonable distance away I use it and call 911, if the assailant tries to shoot more victims, I engage him and hopefully put him down before he does the same to me. If I'm 15' away and there is no cover, I pray to hell that his firearm really is malfunctioning, draw and order him to disarm and prone out, if he is literally beating the victim to death, I fire to stop the threat (into his body until he quits beating on the guy).

    Scenario no.2 : My loved ones are "a few tables" away from the shooter, I quickly position myself so as to draw his fire away from them and empty a full magazine into the SOB. I don't shout at him, order him down or nothing, the first he knows of me are the .45 slugs tearing into his center mass as fast as I can accurately pull the trigger.

    Your opinion may differ.
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