Vigilantes - Page 2

Vigilantes

This is a discussion on Vigilantes within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Hopyard It is not part of citizenship responsibilities. It is the antithesis of citizenship responsibilities. Take it off the table of your ...

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  1. #16
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    It is not part of citizenship responsibilities. It is the antithesis of citizenship responsibilities. Take it off the table of your thinking for your own well being.
    I had a very long response to your statement mostly centered around semantics... But, I deleted it.

    I do see your side of it.

    But in the end, this entire country, and it's form of government; were founded on the responsibility of the citizenry. Not the people's elected or appointed officialdom, but on the people themselves.
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose


  2. #17
    VIP Member Array searcher 45's Avatar
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    Wife and I served in a neighborhood watch during a time of high crime in our county.

    Sheriff meet with our group, and instructed us in actions to be taken.

    We called the SO and reported in at the beginning of our watch and reported at the close of out watch.

    We were extra eyes and ears for the LE and our tools were a scanner tuned to the SO dispatcher, cell phone, flashlight, and GPS.

    Those with CHLs were encouraged to carry for your own protection, but reminded to stay in your vehicle and use reverse gear and cell phone as best method of dealing with events that did not look right to us.

    In Texas, there is no law regarding long guns in vehicles and many of us carried shotguns or rifles as a defense in our vehicles.

    When a deputy was call to an event we heard it on the scanner and moved in at range to watch and inform, but not as LE backup.

    During the months that we operated, wife and I became friends with many of the deputies and learned to trust each other and work together.

    The cereal rapist has been cough and tried, but the effect of the neighborhood watch was much greater than this one BG.

    We shut down the late night foot traffic used in many cases for drug dealing, when we saw late night foot traffic we would call it in and LE would show up and check it out.

    There is much more to this, we were not vigilantes, but we were citizens many of whom were armed, but under the watchful eye of the sheriff.
    Hopyard and baren like this.
    NOT LIVING IN FEAR, JUST READY!!!
    I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness,
    nor the arrow for its swiftness,
    nor the warrior for his glory.
    I love only that which they defend.
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  3. #18
    Member Array steelhawk's Avatar
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    Right now this is bad guys hunting down and killing other bad guys. While less bad guys is a good thing, it still comes down to bad guys using guns, who probably think a little "collateral damage" is ok. If these baddies are successful, they will eventually become exactly what they are hunting now.

  4. #19
    Senior Member Array Maverickx50's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    I had a very long response to your statement mostly centered around semantics... But, I deleted it.

    I do see your side of it.

    But in the end, this entire country, and it's form of government; were founded on the responsibility of the citizenry. Not the people's elected or appointed officialdom, but on the people themselves.
    Very well put!!!!
    baren likes this.
    I carry to protect myself and my loved ones from the BG's. Not to solve societies problems. That said: if more carried the deterrent would only have a positive overall effect on those problems.

  5. #20
    Distinguished Member Array Chaplain Scott's Avatar
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    If, as some have predicted, a huge economic crash were to occur here, and many of the social and legal restraints were to cease to function, I could easily see our local county Sheriff deputizing a larger number of "Reserve" deputies within the scatered communities in our rural county- This would not be vigilantes, but an extension of the rule of Law
    Hopyard, satori59 and baren like this.
    Scott, US Army 1974-2004

    Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children what it was once like in the United States where men were free.
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  6. #21
    VIP Member Array searcher 45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaplain Scott View Post
    If, as some have predicted, a huge economic crash were to occur here, and many of the social and legal restraints were to cease to function, I could easily see our local county Sheriff deputizing a larger number of "Reserve" deputies within the scatered communities in our rural county- This would not be vigilantes, but an extension of the rule of Law
    I fully agree!!!!!

    The sheriff needs to start to learn who he can trust before bad things like this happen.
    NOT LIVING IN FEAR, JUST READY!!!
    I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness,
    nor the arrow for its swiftness,
    nor the warrior for his glory.
    I love only that which they defend.
    -J.R.R. Tolkien

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    It is not part of citizenship responsibilities. It is the antithesis of citizenship responsibilities. Take it off the table of your thinking for your own well being.
    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    I had a very long response to your statement mostly centered around semantics... But, I deleted it.

    I do see your side of it.

    But in the end, this entire country, and it's form of government; were founded on the responsibility of the citizenry. Not the people's elected or appointed officialdom, but on the people themselves.
    Boom! Nailed it. At one point in our history men thought is was their duty to protect themselves. We were a country of the people, by the people and for the people. Now we are a country of sucklings living at the Government's bosom.
    jackson85746 likes this.
    I havenít heard any of the journalists who volunteered to be waterboarded asking to have their fingernails wrenched out with pliers, or electrodes attached to their genitals.

  8. #23
    Member Array ws76133's Avatar
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    "Those with CHLs were encouraged to carry for your own protection, but reminded to stay in your vehicle and use reverse gear and cell phone as best method of dealing with events that did not look right to us."

    Unfortunately, in Fort Worth's Code Blue - Citizen's Patrol, we're specifically barred from carrying anything more than OC spray. The lawyers are afraid of the liability.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    I had a very long response to your statement mostly centered around semantics... But, I deleted it.

    I do see your side of it.

    But in the end, this entire country, and it's form of government; were founded on the responsibility of the citizenry. Not the people's elected or appointed officialdom, but on the people themselves.
    I've finally reached that point in my life where I can voraciously read for leisure, and I'm catching up on stuff I've missed in the past. I just finished reading "Democracy in America" by Tocqueville, and I am not as sure as you are that what you claim is correct.

    Most of pre - revolutionary civilization in what we now call the US, especially prior to the 1730s, was based on small townships. Within these towns the individual citizen had a participatory role but there was officialdom. The officialdom was selected from among the population. There were the usual figures. Judge, night watchman, dude in charge of road, and there were legislative processes to insure good order. I have carefully bolded the word "selected" because even today the elected officials of New England towns are often known as "Selectmen." I don't think there was much
    taking the law into one's own hands in those days. The early settlers had an allegiance to English law, to trial by jury, to good public order, and a necessity to self govern due to the distance and indifference of England before the mid-1700s.

    Certainly the rebellion against England was not a do it yourself affair of the citizenry. There were various legislative bodies in each of the colonies which chose delegates to go to Philadelphia, tasked those delegates with responding to English abuses, and constructed both state constitutions and the Articles of Confederation. In short, there was government and governance, before and even in the midst of revolution against England.

    So, I'm going to reject the idea that any band of citizens can simply assume a governmental function without election or other official appointment. That is not how our country actually was created. That is not how we have ever done things. Even on the frontiers of civilization as The West was being opened, there was law...and the fact that there was law is the reason "vigilantism" has the bad reputation it now has. Vigilantes seldom concerned themselves with the niceties of law and thus were outlaws themselves.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
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  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaplain Scott View Post
    If, as some have predicted, a huge economic crash were to occur here, and many of the social and legal restraints were to cease to function, I could easily see our local county Sheriff deputizing a larger number of "Reserve" deputies within the scatered communities in our rural county- This would not be vigilantes, but an extension of the rule of Law
    Exactly. Very well put. This is something from within the existing law and not from without.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

  11. #26
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Leave law enforcement to those who are supposed to do it. Leave military matters to those who are supposed to do it. Leave mall security to those hired to do it. And remember that your license doesn't make you a police man or a soldier.
    So a question for you Hopyard. If we leave these things to those who are supposed to do it, and they don't do it, are you saying we should just accept it not being done?

    ETA: Also harkening back to Jolly Olde England reference your post above, lets not forget the the origins of the term "outlaw". If one was declared an outlaw by legal authority any citizen coming in contact with the outlaw was free to kill them on sight. IIRC land owners were at times obligated to do so. So there is historical precedent for the individual citizen to act in the absence for whatever reason of official government agents. Dealing with outlaws in such a way was understood to be part of the social contract one was bound to as a "good citizen" in the society from which many of our customs and laws have come.
    baren likes this.
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  12. #27
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    I had a very long response to your statement mostly centered around semantics... But, I deleted it.

    I do see your side of it.

    But in the end, this entire country, and it's form of government; were founded on the responsibility of the citizenry. Not the people's elected or appointed officialdom, but on the people themselves.
    Heh, my point about the example of the Mex drug gangs was that, because they have no rules, no honor, are very well funded, and are very extreme & ego-driven....vigilantes would have no chance. Honestly, if 'vigilantes' wanted to go up against them, I dont care at all...I just dont think they would successful. Altho I do think that there would be innocent collateral damage. (Maybe I need to rethink then...)

    My main point, apologies because it was a bit off topic, was that our borders need to be MUCH stronger PERIOD and that is beyond the ability of vigilantes.
    baren likes this.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by searcher 45 View Post
    The cereal rapist .
    He he he
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  14. #29
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    I am over here so I miss out on a lot but some, by no means all, of these groups also represent the scum of american society.

    The American Socialist Party/American Nazi Party, the Klan/Kluckers of the world and so on. While the public face is that of we are here to help stem the tide of illegal immigrants crossing the border a lot of it is simply a hater dressed in camo running around the desert waiting for something to shoot at.

    I do feel that a landowner should be able to protect his property and not live in fear from a druggy crossing into the US. There will come a time when openly and within the law there will be US troops, in large amounts, stationed along the border to stem the tide. We have given far to much and been far to nice to our southern neighbor and now they expect and demand rights they never earned.

    There is no issue with those who come here legally to work and contribute to the american society but to come here and do nothing and expect everything is unacceptable. The Mexican government created this monster or let it go unchecked so they are not really concerned about what goes on at the border. The drug cartels pay off many of the police/government officials and those that can't be bought are killed outright so short of a full military intervention, which I think they have tried a couple of times, they are pretty much powerless.
    Pistology likes this.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  15. #30
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    There will come a time when openly and within the law there will be US troops, in large amounts, stationed along the border to stem the tide. We have given far to much and been far to nice to our southern neighbor and now they expect and demand rights they never earned.

    .
    We do need more, much more, protection along our borders. For the several reasons I gave besides illegal immigration.

    I do agree that the govt will have to step up, as you wrote. However it will be too late...because it is politically incorrect. It seems impossible to divorce it from the appearance of racism. Yet the violence from the Mexican drug gangs, and epidemics, terrorists....will all have opportunities to gain footholds before any real action takes place.

    Again...this is coming from a Dem.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

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