Vigilantes - Page 3

Vigilantes

This is a discussion on Vigilantes within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; At one time, the founding fathers of this country were reffered to as" vigilantes" along with several other names that were not so flattering.I guess ...

Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 31 to 45 of 68
Like Tree47Likes

Thread: Vigilantes

  1. #31
    Senior Moderator
    Array HotGuns's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Arkansas
    Posts
    14,911
    At one time, the founding fathers of this country were reffered to as" vigilantes" along with several other names that were not so flattering.I guess it just depends on what side you are on at the time.
    atctimmy, OD*, WHEC724 and 2 others like this.
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


    AR. CHL Instr. 07/02 FFL
    Like custom guns and stuff? Check this out...
    http://bobbailey1959.wordpress.com/


  2. #32
    VIP Member
    Array tacman605's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Arkansas/On the X in Afghanistan
    Posts
    3,051
    9mm you are so right I see it here everyday. To avoid laws that do not allow military to perform LE duties in the states they will use contractors to fill the gap. Just as they used Blackwater in New Orleans. Contracts have already been offered in some areas where private companies have a vested government interest.

    We will just have to wait and see.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  3. #33
    Member Array Ishmael's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Ohio Valley
    Posts
    231
    Well, considering that most statistics regarding violent crime are pretty positive these days (much lower than a decade or two ago), and considering that upwards of ninety percent of court cases result in pleas or conviction, the need doesn't really seem to be there?
    Hopyard likes this.

  4. #34
    Senior Member Array Maverickx50's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    LaCrosse Wisconsin
    Posts
    778
    Quote Originally Posted by Ishmael View Post
    Well, considering that most statistics regarding violent crime are pretty positive these days (much lower than a decade or two ago), and considering that upwards of ninety percent of court cases result in pleas or conviction, the need doesn't really seem to be there?
    Figures don't lie but lairs can figure. I don't trust the statistics as the way there collected does not compare to what their compared against from the past. I do know a large part of our population lives in fear and that was not the case as I recall it in the 50's and 60's. As such I disagree with your last statement.
    baren likes this.
    I carry to protect myself and my loved ones from the BG's. Not to solve societies problems. That said: if more carried the deterrent would only have a positive overall effect on those problems.

  5. #35
    Senior Member Array Maverickx50's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    LaCrosse Wisconsin
    Posts
    778
    JUST AN EXAMPLE:

    Vigilantes going after gang men
    (The Freeman) Updated April 01, 2010 12:00 AM Comments (0) View comments

    CEBU, Philippines - Vigilantes are also tracking down gang members.

    Senior Supt. Patrocinio Comendador, director of Cebu City Police Office, told reporters yesterday that they received an intelligence report that vigilantes are now hunting down gang members.

    Comendador said records showed that gang-related incidents in the city have increased by 500 percent this year.

    "Sigon sa report na amo nadawat, nagka-interest na sad sila karon sa mga gang members," Comendador said.

    The so-called vigilantes are reportedly policemen “trained and paid” to kill criminals.

    Many of those who have criminal records have been gunned down in vigilante-style manner few years ago.

    Meanwhile, Comendador has directed Sr. Insp. Bonifacio Garciano, head of the Anti-Street Hoodlum Operating Team (A-SHOT), to go after those involved in gang-related shooting in Barangay Mabolo last Tuesday.

    Jordan Rosales, 18, of Barangay Subangdaku, Mandaue City, and alleged member of Crips, died after he was hit in the chest when unidentified assailants believed to be members of Bloods opened fire at him.

    Garciano was directed to look for the perpetrators so any plans by the vigilantes to kill them may be pre-empted, said Comendador.

    Garciano said most gang members charged for petty crimes are now freed, adding that they are the same persons who perpetrate gang-related crimes in the city.

    Comendador said this development should serve as warning to notorious gang members.

    "We can only do so much for them by enforcing the law. This should also serve as a warning for them," he said.

    Asked if vigilantes really exist, he said there are people that take the law in their hands because of the delay in the justice system. – Niña G. Sumacot/LPM (THE FREEMAN)
    I carry to protect myself and my loved ones from the BG's. Not to solve societies problems. That said: if more carried the deterrent would only have a positive overall effect on those problems.

  6. #36
    VIP Member
    Array Saber's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Yuma, Arizona
    Posts
    2,591
    At the current rate of decline we may all end up like this whether we want to or not.
    baren likes this.
    “Monsters are real and so are ghosts. They live inside of us, and sometimes they win.”
    ~ Stephen King

  7. #37
    VIP Member
    Array Hopyard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Disappeared
    Posts
    11,662
    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    At one time, the founding fathers of this country were reffered to as" vigilantes" along with several other names that were not so flatterng.I guess it just depends on what side you are on at the time.
    Rebels, of course. Vigilantes, no. Not the founders. All were delegated by elected assemblies of the various colonies.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

  8. #38
    VIP Member
    Array Hopyard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Disappeared
    Posts
    11,662
    Quote Originally Posted by Maverickx50 View Post
    JUST AN EXAMPLE:

    Vigilantes going after gang men
    (The Freeman) Updated April 01, 2010 12:00 AM Comments (0) View comments

    CEBU, Philippines - Vigilantes are also tracking down gang members.

    Senior Supt. Patrocinio Comendador, director of Cebu City Police Office, told reporters yesterday that they received an intelligence report that vigilantes are now hunting down gang members.

    Comendador said records showed that gang-related incidents in the city have increased by 500 percent this year.

    "Sigon sa report na amo nadawat, nagka-interest na sad sila karon sa mga gang members," Comendador said.

    The so-called vigilantes are reportedly policemen “trained and paid” to kill criminals.

    Many of those who have criminal records have been gunned down in vigilante-style manner few years ago.

    Meanwhile, Comendador has directed Sr. Insp. Bonifacio Garciano, head of the Anti-Street Hoodlum Operating Team (A-SHOT), to go after those involved in gang-related shooting in Barangay Mabolo last Tuesday.

    Jordan Rosales, 18, of Barangay Subangdaku, Mandaue City, and alleged member of Crips, died after he was hit in the chest when unidentified assailants believed to be members of Bloods opened fire at him.

    Garciano was directed to look for the perpetrators so any plans by the vigilantes to kill them may be pre-empted, said Comendador.

    Garciano said most gang members charged for petty crimes are now freed, adding that they are the same persons who perpetrate gang-related crimes in the city.

    Comendador said this development should serve as warning to notorious gang members.

    "We can only do so much for them by enforcing the law. This should also serve as a warning for them," he said.

    Asked if vigilantes really exist, he said there are people that take the law in their hands because of the delay in the justice system. – Niña G. Sumacot/LPM (THE FREEMAN)
    Uh, the same could be said of the Peronistas who made people disappear. There is nothing laudable about this, and not even in the Philippines. Which isn't as chaotic as often thought by outsiders.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

  9. #39
    VIP Member
    Array Hopyard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Disappeared
    Posts
    11,662
    Quote Originally Posted by mcp1810 View Post
    So a question for you Hopyard. If we leave these things to those who are supposed to do it, and they don't do it, are you saying we should just accept it not being done?
    This happens all the time with all manner of things from keeping up the parks to running an efficient trial calendar. The solution is the election or the recall where available. One of the more interesting points made in "Democracy in America" concerned the frequency with which we hold elections, which affords us the ability to quickly correct our errors. So if we have elected a government which chooses to do nothing, or not enough, we have to conclude either of two things to be true. They are doing what the folks want or we
    have it in our hands to change it. We have to believe in this as true or we can not say we are supporters of our constitution.

    ETA: Also harkening back to Jolly Olde England reference your post above, lets not forget the the origins of the term "outlaw". If one was declared an outlaw by legal authority any citizen coming in contact with the outlaw was free to kill them on sight. IIRC land owners were at times obligated to do so.
    A judicial process was used and thus the actions taken subsequent were lawful. We did this too-- "Wanted Dead or Alive." This has nothing to do with vigilantism.

    So there is historical precedent for the individual citizen to act in the absence for whatever reason of official government agents.
    Not really. See my immediate above comment.

    Dealing with outlaws in such a way was understood to be part of the social contract one was bound to as a "good citizen" in the society from which many of our customs and laws have come.
    Yes, but this was within the framework of governmental oversight. Somewhere along the way a legal official made the determination that an individual was an outlaw. That is quite different from roving groups of
    self-appointed vigilantes picking their own targets without the existence of a prior lawful order permitting their actions.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

  10. #40
    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    texas
    Posts
    15,179
    One huge problem with Illegals and Civilians trying to prevent Border crossings is that you are treading in dangerous waters,you use any force physical or otherwise against an Illegal and you will very likely face prosecution,there is a bunch of ranchers about 40 miles north of me that are tired of people crossing their land,they drop off Illegals so they can walk around the Falfurrias Checkpoint,the landowners go out at night to watch trails and call Border Patrol when they see movement,they aren't supposed to be armed,but I will bet most have Concealed handguns
    "Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country,"
    --Mayor Marion Barry, Washington , DC .

  11. #41
    Senior Member Array Spade115's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    603
    The only other problem with what duk is saying is I know it has happened that a ranch owner has detained illegals and the owner gets sued and LOSES at the end. Where I live (different area as duk) I have had illegals run through my yard and try and get into my grandmother fenced yard (lives right next door to me) 2 in the morning you see copters adn border patrol shooting in 4 cars at a time. Wasnt this bad until they opened up a section that leads to the street next door.
    When life gives you lemons, Open a lemonaid buisness.

  12. #42
    Senior Member Array Maverickx50's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    LaCrosse Wisconsin
    Posts
    778
    Quote Originally Posted by Spade115 View Post
    The only other problem with what duk is saying is I know it has happened that a ranch owner has detained illegals and the owner gets sued and LOSES at the end. Where I live (different area as duk) I have had illegals run through my yard and try and get into my grandmother fenced yard (lives right next door to me) 2 in the morning you see copters adn border patrol shooting in 4 cars at a time. Wasnt this bad until they opened up a section that leads to the street next door.
    The reason I titled this Vigilante as opposed to other choices is I was alluding to not so legal groups of other wise "good?" but frustrated citizens hunting down BG's including but not limited border crossers and street gang members. In such cases I'd expect few to be detained or arrested. Reason being if it ever comes down to this, and it has in a few places, It's because the system is not working and long term detention or deportation would not be anticipated.
    I carry to protect myself and my loved ones from the BG's. Not to solve societies problems. That said: if more carried the deterrent would only have a positive overall effect on those problems.

  13. #43
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Iowa
    Posts
    7,414
    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    At one time, the founding fathers of this country were reffered to as" vigilantes" along with several other names that were not so flattering.I guess it just depends on what side you are on at the time.
    The term Terrorist Insurgent comes to mind.. but might not have been thought of back then... But I'd bet that many were branded Traitors.
    baren likes this.
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

  14. #44
    VIP Member
    Array Hopyard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Disappeared
    Posts
    11,662
    Quote Originally Posted by Maverickx50 View Post
    The reason I titled this Vigilante as opposed to other choices is I was alluding to not so legal groups of other wise "good?" but frustrated citizens hunting down BG's including but not limited border crossers and street gang members. In such cases I'd expect few to be detained or arrested. Reason being if it ever comes down to this, and it has in a few places, It's because the system is not working and long term detention or deportation would not be anticipated.
    First sentence above simply says that frustrated good guys sometimes turn to "not so legal" solutions. At that point, when the actions are "not so legal" they are no longer good guys. They are guys who have made a deliberate decision to violate the law and to put their judgment above the law. Our jails are full of folks who think like that.
    Maverickx50 likes this.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

  15. #45
    VIP Member
    Array Pistology's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    South Coast LA Cty
    Posts
    2,080
    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    No I dont believe in vigilantes to guard the borders.

    While I do not support illegal immigration, I dont support vigilantes 'hunting' them. I also dont support vigilantes going after the Mexican drug gangs...because they will kick the vigilantes' butts...sorry, but they have absolutely NO hesitation to kill and have everything to gain by doing so and instilling more fear.

    OTOH, I do believe that we need to develop MUCH MUCH better protection of our borders for other reasons than illegal imm.....terrorism, epidemics, and the drug gangs are enormous threats that we are in ZERO position to stop if and "when" these threats arize. as they will...and 'reacting' wont do anything. We need to be be proactive, now.

    And yes, I am a (semi-liberal) Democrat
    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    We do need more, much more, protection along our borders. For the several reasons I gave besides illegal immigration.

    I do agree that the govt will have to step up, as you wrote. However it will be too late...because it is politically incorrect. It seems impossible to divorce it from the appearance of racism. Yet the violence from the Mexican drug gangs, and epidemics, terrorists....will all have opportunities to gain footholds before any real action takes place.

    Again...this is coming from a Dem.
    Of big-picture effectiveness - I agree that of vigilantism is minimal as it should be.

    Homeland security is bipartisan. The Customs and Border Patrol workforce has grown over 40% in the last six fiscal years with a greater percentage of the total force allocated to the southwestern border. In the real world of limited resources, as our nation fights wars in foreign countries, at increasing costs per mile along our southwestern border, with more barriers - physical and electronic - southwestern border staffing and resources have never been higher than under Obama.

    Why say that government is "too little too late", etc., with southwest border protection? You say that you are a "Dem". The beefier border is a bipartisan effort as it has been for years.

    National Guard troops in four states are in training today as they prepare to join colleagues already supporting Border Patrol agents on the nation’s Southwest border.
    Article 1 and Article 2 discuss the increasing role of the NG on the southwest border in support of US Customs and Border Protection.

    Besides, while you refer to "borders", mostly invoking activity along the southwestern border, the US Government reports that the risk of terrorism is far greater from the Canadian border.

    Can you acknowledge ongoing efforts and explain what more you expect of our government in border protection along 1,951 miles from San Diego, California, to Brownsville, Texas and about 4,000 miles of Canadian border - plus about 2,000 miles of approaches by sea including Puerto Rico!?
    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    The term Terrorist Insurgent comes to mind.. but might not have been thought of back then... But I'd bet that many were branded Traitors.
    We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately.
    Benjamin Franklin at the signing of the Declaration of Independence

    Quote Originally Posted by Maverickx50 View Post
    I have mixed feelings about this. On one hand I'm thinking armed citizens need to take charge of their own neighborhood security. On the other hand a large group of "Mall Ninjas" full of themselves and carrying guns does not make me feel a whole lot safer either.
    Neighborhood and Community Watch is great and works to heighten awareness and to report better neighborhood crime and so reduce it.

    To paraphrase Franklin, "A group all wrapped up in itself makes a small package". I'm not clear on the legality of armed vigilantes, but their efficacy - ethical force - is inferior to that of sworn officers. Armed vigilantes are a slap in the face of an appropriate response from federal authorities on the borders and in the face of local and state authorities elsewhere. Armed vigilantes too much risk giving law-abiding, defensive-carrying armed citizens a bad rap.
    Last edited by Pistology; October 3rd, 2011 at 07:59 PM.
    Americans understood the right of self-preservation as permitting a citizen to repel force by force
    when the intervention of society... may be too late to prevent an injury.
    -Blackstone’s Commentaries 145–146, n. 42 (1803) in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008)

Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Search tags for this page

defensive

,

defensive carry

,

hodgdon reloading data

,

homeland hbo

,

lacrosse wisconsin vigilante

,

sr.+supt.+patrocinio+comendador+on+vigilant+killing+in+cebu city

,

vigilante and concealed carry

,

vigilante founding fathers

,

vigilante instances in texas

,

were founding fathers vigilanties?

Click on a term to search for related topics.

» Log in

User Name:

Password:

Not a member yet?
Register Now!

» DefensiveCarry Sponsors