Vigilantes

This is a discussion on Vigilantes within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; One option for such groups in Texas, if they really want to be the police or military but can't get hired is to incorporate their ...

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  1. #46
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    One option for such groups in Texas, if they really want to be the police or military but can't get hired is to incorporate their own town. If they can get enough neighbors to sign the petition they can jump through a couple hoops and form their own town or city. Then as long as they meet the minimum certification standards they could get the training and become volunteer reserve officers for their city police. The city could have a municipal curfew and the officers could legally enforce that curfew. As long as they cross their "T"s and dot their "I"s and don't take action outside their lawful jurisdiction it would be perfectly legal.
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  3. #47
    Senior Member Array Maverickx50's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    First sentence above simply says that frustrated good guys sometimes turn to "not so legal" solutions. At that point, when the actions are "not so legal" they are no longer good guys. They are guys who have made a deliberate decision to violate the law and to put their judgment above the law. Our jails are full of folks who think like that.
    Glad you got the just of what I meant. And I do agree with you. Still right, wrong, or indifferent I think many of us will live to see a lot of this happening and it makes sense to think now where would I/we stand.
    I carry to protect myself and my loved ones from the BG's. Not to solve societies problems. That said: if more carried the deterrent would only have a positive overall effect on those problems.

  4. #48
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ishmael View Post
    Well, considering that most statistics regarding violent crime are pretty positive these days (much lower than a decade or two ago), and considering that upwards of ninety percent of court cases result in pleas or conviction, the need doesn't really seem to be there?
    While not supporting the vigilante idea, there's no doubt in my mind that the drug violence South of the border is going to move North more and more...as it already is. They corrupt or kill or intimidateeveryone in their way. I feel strongly that we need to ACT on this threat, rather than reacting to it. Undoing corruption networks is extremely hard....and we already know it's tough to make someone undead.

    Of course, this is just my perception.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  5. #49
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pistology View Post
    Why say that government is "too little too late", etc., with southwest border protection? You say that you are a "Dem". The beefier border is a bipartisan effort as it has been for years.


    [.
    Doesnt matter who's in office, that border is still as porous as swiss cheese. As someone who has a layman's fascination with epidemiology, we dont stand a chance at controlling the human beings that cross our borders at this time.

    And I qualify my political leaning because in general, I think Democrats are much less inclined to enforce our border security, mostly with respect to illegal immigration tho. I think Obama's actually been pretty good about it, but could do better.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  6. #50
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    Rebels, of course. Vigilantes, no. Not the founders. All were delegated by elected assemblies of the various colonies.
    The King and his Troops didn't care much about that since he considered it any and all acts against the King to be illegal.

    When the "Boston Riot" took place and some settlers got killed, which later resulted in some British Troops getting shot,it was considered by many too be a "vigilante" action.

    Those that were for it considered it to be payback.
    Those that weren't considered those that participated to be Vigilantes.

    Like I stated, its all about which side you are on.

    A man on the Arizon border loses his family to Mexican Drug Lords. That man hunts the offenders down and kills them. The Feds would call that a Vigilante action.
    The neighbors of the man might see it as something that needed to be done, real justice and hail that man as a Hero.
    It's not always as black and white as we would like to think.
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  7. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    A man on the Arizon border loses his family to Mexican Drug Lords. That man hunts the offenders down and kills them. The Feds would call that a Vigilante action.
    The neighbors of the man might see it as something that needed to be done, real justice and hail that man as a Hero.
    It's not always as black and white as we would like to think.
    Not sure to what pronoun "it" refers, but the law is quite black and white.
    Americans understood the right of self-preservation as permitting a citizen to repel force by force
    when the intervention of society... may be too late to prevent an injury.
    -Blackstone’s Commentaries 145–146, n. 42 (1803) in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008)

  8. #52
    Senior Member Array Maverickx50's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    Doesnt matter who's in office, that border is still as porous as swiss cheese. As someone who has a layman's fascination with epidemiology, we dont stand a chance at controlling the human beings that cross our borders at this time.

    And I qualify my political leaning because in general, I think Democrats are much less inclined to enforce our border security, mostly with respect to illegal immigration tho. I think Obama's actually been pretty good about it, but could do better.
    Dems may (just may) be less inclined but not as less inclined as all the Former/current Texas Republican Governors from what I'm seeing. But lets not turn this into dems vs republican. It is a bi-partisan problem.
    I carry to protect myself and my loved ones from the BG's. Not to solve societies problems. That said: if more carried the deterrent would only have a positive overall effect on those problems.

  9. #53
    VIP Member Array searcher 45's Avatar
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    Read this article and think about this thread, it may make a difference in your view of things.

    Articles: Hezb'allah Cells Active Worldwide, Including in U.S.
    NOT LIVING IN FEAR, JUST READY!!!
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    nor the arrow for its swiftness,
    nor the warrior for his glory.
    I love only that which they defend.
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  10. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverickx50 View Post
    Figures don't lie but lairs can figure. I don't trust the statistics as the way there collected does not compare to what their compared against from the past. I do know a large part of our population lives in fear and that was not the case as I recall it in the 50's and 60's. As such I disagree with your last statement.
    Crime WAS lower in the 1950s and 1960s than it is now. Crime was however a LOT higher in the 1990s and 1980s than it is now. As for living in fear, I'd want to see the overlay between "people who are scared s***less all the time" and "people who watch a lot of TV news."

  11. #55
    VIP Member Array Guns and more's Avatar
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    What do you expect citizens to do when their government abdicates it's responsibility?
    When Janet Napolitano pretends to be shocked that any illegals are crossing the border, do you think, as she does, that citizens will simply stick their heads in the sand and wait to be a victim?
    I don't want to be a vigilante, I also don't want to live in a third world country so some politician gets re-elected.
    I remember the "minutemen". They watched the border, and reported incursions to the authorities. DHS hated and marginalized them. DHS did not want someone pointing out how they had allowed the free flow of illegals into the country.
    God bless the minutemen.

  12. #56
    Senior Member Array Maverickx50's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by searcher 45 View Post
    Read this article and think about this thread, it may make a difference in your view of things.

    Articles: Hezb'allah Cells Active Worldwide, Including in U.S.
    I raised my family in a nice quiet suburb of Minneapolis/St/Paul MN (Fridley) You don't think of Minnesota when you think of terrorist organizations. Not long ago several Teens (21 to be exact) disappeared and ended up in Somali. Somali terror group linked to Al Qaeda Recruited 21 Young Muslims in Minnesota - Atlas Shrugs The entire community has been taken over by Muslim families and based on the recent history it's not going well for the good citizens of Minnesota. I struggle with condemning all Muslims. But, given how little we hear from that community condemning terrorism by the "few" I'm not at all optimistic about their real true interests as a whole.
    I carry to protect myself and my loved ones from the BG's. Not to solve societies problems. That said: if more carried the deterrent would only have a positive overall effect on those problems.

  13. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    First sentence above simply says that frustrated good guys sometimes turn to "not so legal" solutions. At that point, when the actions are "not so legal" they are no longer good guys. They are guys who have made a deliberate decision to violate the law and to put their judgment above the law. Our jails are full of folks who think like that.
    Sometimes things in the real world aren't black and white. If the law makes bad guys out of good guys then the law is the problem, not the people trying to survive. Remember, the law isn't real. It doesn't bleed, it doesn't feed a family or tuck it's kids in at night. It's just a standard that we are supposed to uphold. The law is supposed to protect us, not make us more vulnerable to societal predators.

    When circumstances make the legal standard unreachable then the law needs to change. It's not the other way around where good people are supposed to sacrifice themselves to bad guys on the altar of utopian idealism.
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    It is surely true that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. Nor can you make them grateful for your efforts.

  14. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverickx50 View Post
    I raised my family in a nice quiet suburb of Minneapolis/St/Paul MN (Fridley) You don't think of Minnesota when you think of terrorist organizations. Not long ago several Teens (21 to be exact) disappeared and ended up in Somali. Somali terror group linked to Al Qaeda Recruited 21 Young Muslims in Minnesota - Atlas Shrugs The entire community has been taken over by Muslim families and based on the recent history it's not going well for the good citizens of Minnesota. I struggle with condemning all Muslims. But, given how little we hear from that community condemning terrorism by the "few" I'm not at all optimistic about their real true interests as a whole.
    There will come a time when the non Muslim world realizes that we are in a fight to the death with Islam. We we either kill them all or they will kill or enslave all of us. There really is no middle ground. I may catch some flack for this post but not from anyone who has bothered to study Islam.
    OD* likes this.
    It is surely true that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. Nor can you make them grateful for your efforts.

  15. #59
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverickx50 View Post
    Dems may (just may) be less inclined but not as less inclined as all the Former/current Texas Republican Governors from what I'm seeing. But lets not turn this into dems vs republican. It is a bi-partisan problem.
    As it is the responsibility of the FEDERAL government to secure our borders any action by state officials might be considered by some to be vigilante actions.
    But our biennial budget for border security has almost doubled from $111 million to $219 million. That is money that could be going to stuff like teachers salaries if state and local law enforcement were not stuck doing someone else's job.
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  16. #60
    Senior Member Array Maverickx50's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcp1810 View Post
    As it is the responsibility of the FEDERAL government to secure our borders any action by state officials might be considered by some to be vigilante actions.
    But our biennial budget for border security has almost doubled from $111 million to $219 million. That is money that could be going to stuff like teachers salaries if state and local law enforcement were not stuck doing someone else's job.
    I agree Totally......BUT, We have had 2 recent and one now aspiring president from Texas and NONE of them have done (or promised to do) much of anything to help the situation on a Federal level.
    I carry to protect myself and my loved ones from the BG's. Not to solve societies problems. That said: if more carried the deterrent would only have a positive overall effect on those problems.

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