Dogs and deadly force

This is a discussion on Dogs and deadly force within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I too would stop the threat. The question was asked about the, now former, dog's owner and how they would react. In my opinion, if ...

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  1. #31
    Distinguished Member Array noway2's Avatar
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    I too would stop the threat.

    The question was asked about the, now former, dog's owner and how they would react. In my opinion, if they were already present and aware of the situation and did nothing to intervene, then in all likelihood they were taking pleasure in the thought of their dog intimidating you. In this case, it serves them right to have Killer's soul dispatched. If they were not aware of it, well, then they should have been more attentive to the situation. To have an aggressive dog running free does not speak well of the owner in multiple ways.

    Speaking of owner's glee in intimidation by dog, the first time I went to visit my grandfather in his winter home in FL, I went outside and approached where he was talking to his neighbor, with the intent of introducing myself. As I approached, the first words out of the idiot neighbor's mouth were "you watch out, she bites" while pointing to this little kitchen pisser of a dog. My response was equally polite saying that, "if it does, I'll break it's scrawny neck." Needless to say, that was the end of our conversation and no introductions ensued.
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  3. #32
    Distinguished Member Array kelcarry's Avatar
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    Most replies and the thread itself assume that when a dog, with its speed and ,has decided to attack you, you will have time to get a firearm out of a holster, put a bullet in the chamber (if a semi), aim it and fire it--all the time while this crazy dog has gotten a hold of your arm, your leg, your neck etal. Just seems to me to be a difficult scenario for you to defend yourself. You cannot walk around with your firearm exposed (we are talking CC here) even if you are approaching a dog that is barking loudly etal so my scenario sounds right to me. Certainly having your firearm is always a good self defense option, but in this type of extreme dynamic situation, it seems that a serrated knife or pepper/bear spray or a self defense baton etal could serve you better in close quarters and you can carry these items "at the ready" and not in a CC mode. Personally I carry a serrated knife at the ready which will, if necessary, allow me to defend myself. Just find all of the steps necessary to bring a CC firearm into play to be a time consuming effort that will come too late and may be useless in this situation.

  4. #33
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    The only dog that I couldn't back down was a police dog that was sic'ed on me (different story).

    Every other one knew who the alpha was. They are pack animals and fairly astute in reading you. That's a good or bad thing, depending on who you are. I finally got my wife carrying pepper spray now. We encounter stray dogs just about every day. They likelihood of either of us actually shooting a dog is very, very slim, but always an option on the table.
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  5. #34
    VIP Member Array Sheldon J's Avatar
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    anyway one here that has ever been attached by a dog raise your hand ...

    I have... several times so I feel I am qualified to speak out here, the rest are only opinions from the unenlightened.

    Someone mentioned small dogs, in the wild they can carry dangerous disease, the neighbors dog may be fine but they can still break the skin causing serious infection. You call that one...

    Out for a stroll .... any dog can be deadly, no poor puppy syndrome, no he may be... treat every dog on the loose as a potential life threat!

    If you let them get close enough to bite it's too late. Packs be ready to shoot on sight, aggressive be ready to shoot on sight, never I reiterate never run, it will only mark you as prey.

    Been attacked by dog packs, dogs on a leash, so called friendly dogs running loose, been bit, shots, tests, therapy, not fun!

    I will never be bitten again! Loose dog showing any level of aggression, SSS.
    "The sword dose not cause the murder, and the maker of the sword dose not bear sin" Rabbi Solomon ben Isaac 11th century

  6. #35
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    Regardless of the law in whatever land you happen to be in, think of it this way... Is it morally justifiable to shoot someone because they look aggressive, or yelled at you with profane language? In most situations the answer would be NO. I apply the same logic to dogs. A big mean looking dog or a dog that shows it teeth or growls when you enter into it's domain isn't necessarily threat. A dog that comes up to while growling isn't necessarily a threat either, if you understand dogs.
    "Legitimate use of violence can only be that which is required in self-defense."
    Ron Paul.

  7. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kahnkem View Post
    So what you are saying is that if it is justified I only have to worry about the local LE having a bad day and charging me with improper discharge of a weapon.
    No.
    Not just that, it depends on the animal cruelty local laws and what you can prove as to the viciousness of the dog. People have been found guilty, even in rural NC, for animal cruelty for shooting a dog that was attacking their child.

  8. #37
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    A simple act of self defense can spiral out of control. Anytime you present you gun and fire, it's going to cost you a bundle. See what happened in the link below when a CCW holder was threatened by dogs. I apologize if this thread has appeared here before.

    The Liberty Papers »Blog Archive » Harold Fish is Free!

  9. #38
    Distinguished Member Array noway2's Avatar
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    anyway one here that has ever been attached by a dog raise your hand ...
    On that note, one needs to also be careful of dogs in a home as they can still do unpredictable things. When I was 2yrs old, I was in the care of my neighbor, when she decided to feed her dogs. She put me on top of the washing machine, in the laundry room where the dog was fed, and put the dog's food on the floor. The dog looked at the food and then turned around, jumped up and tore my face open. Several decades later, I still carry the scar. Obviously putting me in the vicinity of the dog at the time was a bad move, but my neighbor never anticipated that sort of reaction from her dog.
    A simple act of self defense can spiral out of control. Anytime you present you gun and fire, it's going to cost you a bundle.
    Very true. The forum is full of examples. From the article, "At this point, he was attacked by the dog owner who screamed that he was going to kill Mr Fish and charged swinging his fists." I am surprised that they didn't get him on this aspect of disparity of force. Then again, one could argue that man + his dogs is a lot more than just man with fists.

  10. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by noway2 View Post
    ...Then again, one could argue that man + his dogs is a lot more than just man with fists.
    That is a good point.

    I don't think I'd take too kindly to anyone who intentionally tries to sic their dog(s) on me.

    (And I'm stipulating that I would not be doing anything which would warrant having someone sic their dogs on me.)
    -Bark'n
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    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  11. #40
    Distinguished Member Array kelcarry's Avatar
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    In SC a current news story is covering 2 pits running wild and apparently attacking other animals. Police were called and when approaching these pits, in the opinion of one of the officers, they exhibited aggressive behaviour and they shot and killed one and injured the other. When it is the police, their appraisal of the situation and actions they take, in court and in public commentary, is more relevant to the situation than yours would be if you followed the same course of action. If the owner of the dogs decides to question the decisions made, the police have an upper hand, where their opinion is valued more than yours and the resources of their city or town are at their disposal--you, on the other hand, do not have the benefit of these resources. Using a firearm requires some distance and in that distance lies an area where growling and showing of teeth does not necessarily translate to imminent threat requiring your firearm---that is why I carry a serrated knife should an attack actually occur (I can have it out that milisecond before an attack-not so with a firearm--this could be considered brandishing by witnesses) and a can of spray that I can use at distance without killing the animal. I just find writing about a dog attack to be very very easy and to find yourself in the middle of such a situation to be a great deal more complex and difficult.

  12. #41
    VIP Member Array Guns and more's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kahnkem View Post
    Well we have established that most people would shoot a large dog that is attacking, what do you think would be the legal ramifications of shooting "lassie" with a pistol?
    Lassie isn't going to attack you.
    You have to worry about the pit bull that stupid owners have let run wild.
    I have been attacked by a pit bull, and I assure you, I would not hesitate to shoot.

  13. #42
    Distinguished Member Array 4my son's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kahnkem View Post
    Well we have established that most people would shoot a large dog that is attacking, what do you think would be the legal ramifications of shooting "lassie" with a pistol?
    I had to call animal control out on some dogs that killed some of my critters years ago, this is a rural county, 2-4 deputies on duty at any one time, and 2 animal control guys are it. Animal control officer said that if he sees a dog chasing any animals in a manner that could get them (the animals being chased) hurt, he is obligated to shoot that dog, and I have every right to shoot them if I see the same. Off of my property, I can only imagine the same would hold true provided I'm where I have legal rights to be. But then there is always the chance of trouble if you use a gun, I'd rather fight a DA in court than a dog on the street bare handed.
    "fundamental principle of American law that a government and its agents are under no general duty to provide public services, such as police protection, to any individual citizen." [Warren v. District of Columbia,(D.C. Ct. of Ap., 1981)]
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  14. #43
    Member Array paullie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by armado View Post
    A simple act of self defense can spiral out of control. Anytime you present you gun and fire, it's going to cost you a bundle. See what happened in the link below when a CCW holder was threatened by dogs. I apologize if this thread has appeared here before.

    The Liberty Papers »Blog Archive » Harold Fish is Free!
    Really???? Poop happens and sometimes happens to "good guys", but most of time a clean shoot will cost you less than it would cost your wife to plant you 6 foot under.

  15. #44
    Distinguished Member Array INccwchris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelcarry View Post
    Most replies and the thread itself assume that when a dog, with its speed and ,has decided to attack you, you will have time to get a firearm out of a holster, put a bullet in the chamber (if a semi), aim it and fire it--all the time while this crazy dog has gotten a hold of your arm, your leg, your neck etal. Just seems to me to be a difficult scenario for you to defend yourself. You cannot walk around with your firearm exposed (we are talking CC here) even if you are approaching a dog that is barking loudly etal so my scenario sounds right to me. Certainly having your firearm is always a good self defense option, but in this type of extreme dynamic situation, it seems that a serrated knife or pepper/bear spray or a self defense baton etal could serve you better in close quarters and you can carry these items "at the ready" and not in a CC mode. Personally I carry a serrated knife at the ready which will, if necessary, allow me to defend myself. Just find all of the steps necessary to bring a CC firearm into play to be a time consuming effort that will come too late and may be useless in this situation.
    Yeah, your right, it is hard to draw, chamber, aim, and shoot with Cujo on my arm, hence why I carry my gun the way it was designed to carry and just have to draw aim and shoot, if Cujo is hanging off my arm, makes it easier to aim. Perhaps get some training with your gun until you can comfortably carry it the right way and then have less steps to do in a lethal encounter.
    "The value you put on the lost will be determined by the sacrifice you are willing to make to seek them until they are found."

  16. #45
    VIP Member Array Eagleks's Avatar
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    I love brave threads... any dog does this I'll shoot it.... since the dog can't stop them from shooting them.

    I've only seen 1 dog in my life, that I would have shot because it was "super " aggressive and went immediately on the attack when it saw a human. A dog running, barking, and giving you notice, is NOT an attack.

    The other thing I'm amazed at some CCH's .... they don't often think about..... when they start commenting, "well, I'ld pull my gun". At that point, you are introducing a gun into a situation, which may create reactions by others, who may also be armed. Seems few think about the later.... and how this could be perceived as their fault later by others, since they introduced the weapon first into the situation.

    I'ld be sure that a dog was really actually attacking, and I didn't have other options, before introducing a weapon into it.
    I don't make jokes. I just watch the government and report the facts. --- Will Rogers ---
    Chief Justice John Roberts : "I don't see how you can read Heller and not take away from it the notion that the Second Amendment...was extremely important to the framers in their view of what liberty meant."

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