Dogs and deadly force

This is a discussion on Dogs and deadly force within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I'ld be sure that a dog was really actually attacking, and I didn't have other options, before introducing a weapon into it. On the other ...

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  1. #46
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    I'ld be sure that a dog was really actually attacking, and I didn't have other options, before introducing a weapon into it.

    On the other hand, how can you be sure, I mean absolutley positivley sure that you are about to be attacked?

    Truth is...you cant...until you have been bitten. If you get bit by a large aggressive dog, you may not be able to shoot it, or defend yourself adequately. If you go to the ground, it can be fatal.

    Waiting to shoot until you get bit is about the same as waiting for someone to shoot you before you shoot back.

    It just dosent make sense.
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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  3. #47
    VIP Member Array Eagleks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    It just dosent make sense.
    Too you. One bite does not equal death, as one 'shot' might. I've been bitten enough times, and I've never killed the dog for it. There are many ways to handle a dog, even if it attacks, that a gun is just not a primary reaction to me.
    OD* likes this.
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  4. #48
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    One bite does not equal death, as one 'shot' might
    One bite does not equal death...most of the time.

    It could equal much pain, suffering,nerve damage, recuperation time, time off from work, much expense and even mental anquish.

    Not something that most people wish to deal with.
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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  5. #49
    VIP Member Array Eagleks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    One bite does not equal death...most of the time.

    It could equal much pain, suffering,nerve damage, recuperation time, time off from work, much expense and even mental anquish.

    Not something that most people wish to deal with.

    Ha, ha, ha, ha..... gee, you mean I might have gotten time off work for it ?? That's funny.

    If a dog "bites" , you shove whatever he's trying to "bite" .... right into his throat... he can't bite with his back teeth and it forces it's mouth open. And, I'm sure you are smart enough to protect your neck if they went for it with your arm, and could grab the back of it's head and shove your arm back as far as you can in it's mouth..... and believe me, that dog won't want a thing to do with you anymore.

    Then, assuming you are strong enough, you also now have ahold of the back of his neck at that point, and they wouldn't be able to bite you at that point. Or, grab it literally by the side of the face (or both sides with both hands) and put it to the ground and hold it there.

    They will just want to get away from you. LOL.

    Also , what I learned was, if it's a shepherd or dog that goes for then neck, they have to leap up or stand up as they go for your throat, protect your neck with your arm .... and knee them in the chest really hard as they come up and expose their chest ... they will land on their backs.

    You'ld end up with some possible scrapes and some slobber on your arm , but... you wouldn't get nerve damage or miss work.

    I know it seems easier to shoot it (a 25 mph running dog), vs learning a few techniques, carrying some pepper spray.... for that 1 in 50,000 chance it will ever even happen to you.

    Good luck, with whatever you do.
    I don't make jokes. I just watch the government and report the facts. --- Will Rogers ---
    Chief Justice John Roberts : "I don't see how you can read Heller and not take away from it the notion that the Second Amendment...was extremely important to the framers in their view of what liberty meant."

  6. #50
    Distinguished Member Array noway2's Avatar
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    If a dog "bites" , you shove whatever he's trying to "bite" .... right into his throat... he can't bite with his back teeth and it forces it's mouth open.
    Interesting. I actually used that technique on a cat that tried to bite me once. It wasn't a conscious effort, but it was just how I reacted and got my thumb wedged in the crux of its mouth with my hands on the back of it's head. It went non-combative really fast. Now before anyone laughs about cat bite, I have been told by an ER nurse that cat bites are more dangerous than dog because of the puncture and penetration depth of their teeth versus a dog's tearing.

    Personally, I think a dog encounter follows the same rules as a human encounter. Once you are being faced off by a dog, you will be in condition red. At this point, you set your action trigger: if the dog does X, I am going to Y, where Y could include shoot. While I personally have had dogs, it has been 25+ years since and even then they were more docile breeds. Today I would be hard pressed to read a dog's intentions and so back to my 'if the dog does X, I will do Y'. For those who have more experience with dogs, would you please share some advice as far as what to look for in their behavior to indicate whether or not an attack is imminent?

    One thing that I find fascinating is how many have made mention of their dogs (in other threads, especially on home defense) clearly expressing that they expect others to be intimidated by their dog, yet in this thread the number saying that they wouldn't hesitate to put down someone else's Cujo. I am not sure how to correlate these two sentiments. Perhaps it has to do with responsible dog ownership and training as a properly trained dog is not likely to attack someone in an area where they are supposed to be. Instead they are more likely to stay within the limits of their territory.

    In regards to a weapon discharge, I know that in my city, the law states that it is illegal to discharge a firearm within the city, unless it is in self defense.

  7. #51
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    If a dog "bites" , you shove whatever he's trying to "bite" .... right into his throat...
    Sounds good in theory.Trouble is, theory dont always work.

    Somehow the idea of shoving my arm,leg,hand,foot,head,elbow,knee or part of my ass into his mouth that might bite it off just does not appeal to me. But, I'm simple like that.

    That one in 50,000 chance dont mean much if that one chance comes up.
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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  8. #52
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    Another scenario that amplifies the need to have something in your toolbox besides a gun. When your only tool is a hammer, everything looks like a nail....
    Battle Plan (n) - a list of things that aren't going to happen if you are attacked.
    Blame it on Sixto - now that is a viable plan.

  9. #53
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    I work in the ENT Clinic and Trauma Clinics at Duke Hospital, and I can tell you first hand the damages caused by a dog bite take years upon years to recover from, many times causing damage that can't be repaired. I would not for one second hesitate to shoot an advancing aggressive dog. Add to that if my loved ones were with me, it would quickly turn from an advancing aggressive dog to a dead dog for animal control to pickup....
    czman2006 likes this.
    I don't carry a gun because I'm angry.
    I carry a gun so that I don't have to spend the rest of my life hating
    myself for failing to be prepared.

  10. #54
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    Hey noway: Enjoyed your next to last paragraph in your reply #50. It is interesting how things change when the "shoe is on the other foot".
    Hey Matt: Your reply #52 was absolutely right. I have already replied more than once that I find a gun to be a very difficult "tool" when it comes to the dynamics of a dog attack, particularly if you present the gun prematurely---that is brandishing and even though you can argue "I was scared etal", you still have a gun out in front of people in many cases and nothing has happened to you except a dog barking and baring its teeth. If you do fire in the heat of a problem, you can easily fire wrongly as a dog is ripping at you and now you have another problem. Pepper/bear spray and a serrated knife will do the job--there is no brandishing and they can be carried in the open and they are more focussed methods during a possible or actual attack--"good tools for your toolbox".

  11. #55
    Senior Member Array czman2006's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bwalker25 View Post
    I work in the ENT Clinic and Trauma Clinics at Duke Hospital, and I can tell you first hand the damages caused by a dog bite take years upon years to recover from, many times causing damage that can't be repaired. I would not for one second hesitate to shoot an advancing aggressive dog. Add to that if my loved ones were with me, it would quickly turn from an advancing aggressive dog to a dead dog for animal control to pickup....
    Good point! I'm diabetic and a simple bite on my legs could lead to infection and amputation. Sorry, dog, I'm not taking that risk! And yes, I have a much loved dog!
    "Let not your heart be troubled." John 14:1

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  12. #56
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    I was attacked by a pit bull on my bicycle this week, and am currently recovering -- one arm in a sling, awfully scraped up, but I should make a full recovery.

    I wasn't packing because I was coming from work, where they frown on such things. I *will* be packing in the future and keeping it discreet at work -- currently looking at carry options. A paddle holster I can remove a block from work and put in my bag is looking best so far.

    If the same thing happens again, I'll shoot the dog, no hesitation. The "command voice" had no effect at all, next time I will spend those few seconds doing something more useful. I had some OC spray which, while it probably was the ultimate reason the dog left, worked WAY too slowly and was hard to deploy and caused other problems.

    If I were armed and went straight to that solution, which means braking right away so I can draw and stand my ground, I'm sure I would be unscathed right now.

  13. #57
    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eagleks View Post
    Too you. One bite does not equal death, as one 'shot' might. I've been bitten enough times, and I've never killed the dog for it. There are many ways to handle a dog, even if it attacks, that a gun is just not a primary reaction to me.
    Its a personal choice. My choice is not to be bitten if at all possible. If my dog were to bite me I would probably not kill it if at all possible. If your dog were trying to bite me I would do whatever necessary to prevent it from harming me. I would be very aggressive in my response. I will not accept being bitten to save someone else's animal.

    Michael

  14. #58
    VIP Member Array Eagleks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlr1m View Post
    Its a personal choice. My choice is not to be bitten if at all possible. If my dog were to bite me I would probably not kill it if at all possible. If your dog were trying to bite me I would do whatever necessary to prevent it from harming me. I would be very aggressive in my response. I will not accept being bitten to save someone else's animal.

    Michael
    I honestly don't think some people think about how "introducing " a weapon can cause issues they haven't considered, and how shooting a dog running at them is not that particularly easy, nor is it wise many times considering what the background behind the dog is , where the round will end up, or what even a richocte may do. Now, throw in that there may be owners' who may take the gun as not ONLY a threat to the dog, but to them..... and they have a right to protect themselves as well.

    It's not all black and white. One thing I've learned in life is, that nothing is... it's all just different shades of gray.

    I have no fear of a dog attack per se, I can defend against a dog in various ways.... but there are a lot of other choices that people can use that are more effective if they don't know how to handle a dog, that doesn't require a gun. I think people thinking their "gun" is the resolution to all things, are 1) limiting their options, 2) much more liable to end up in prison.

    I have run into a lot of people who act irrationally due to their fear of dogs. I don't care about people's fear of dogs, maybe they need to get some good therapy. I've dealt with too many of them.

    My dog and I were camping in the woods 100 yrds from a guy, and my dog barked just to let me know this guy was advancing towards my camp "aggressively" .... and he traveled that 100 yrds ranting about how my dog was threatening him (100 yrds away).... and was yelling and threatening to kill my dog with a 2 1/2 ft pipe in his hand the whole way. When he got within 30 yrds of my camp, I stepped out and in order to protect my dog, and then he began threatening my life ......... I told him he needed to go to back to his camp and back off ..... when he began advancing toward me swinging it around, is the point he was introduced to a rifle pointing at his head and inviting him to leave.... once he left I then made a call to the Sheriff's Dept that they better come and get this guy. Don't know what happened when the Sheriff visited him, but they hauled him away in cuffs.

    There is such a thing as irrational fears, and I think some times the comments in these threads borderline on it.
    Hoganbeg likes this.
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    Chief Justice John Roberts : "I don't see how you can read Heller and not take away from it the notion that the Second Amendment...was extremely important to the framers in their view of what liberty meant."

  15. #59
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    Eagleks, I understand and appreciate the other points in your last post, and as you said this is not a black and white issue. I would like to ask for group thoughts about this statement:
    Quote Originally Posted by Eagleks
    Now, throw in that there may be owners' who may take the gun as not ONLY a threat to the dog, but to them..... and they have a right to protect themselves as well.
    Obviously it would depend upon circumstances that are undoubtedly envisioned differently by everyone who reads this, but couldn't the dog, or more specifically USE OF a dog, in this situation be considered a deadly weapon? I am trying to think of the situation in terms of the AOJ concept: (A) a dog certainly is quite capable of inflicting grave bodily harm. (O)is the dog within close enough range to make a run and lunge? Arguably for a dog this could be greater than 21' for 2 legged animal, and (J)is the dog making indications that it plans to attack or at least failing to back down?

    With respect to your camping situation, that is rather unfortunate and it sounds like you had a run in with a nut case. I know I for one would not approach your site in this manner.

    @DarthMuffin:
    The "command voice" had no effect at all, next time I will spend those few seconds doing something more useful.
    Would you be willing to share details of the experience, as in what happened, what worked, what didn't, so that perhaps we could all learn from this?

  16. #60
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    Shooting would be my last response, I'd attempt to deter it by yelling at it, OC, if something I could use as a club is available that I can get to safely, or a bladed weapon will be first choice. It has nothing to do with not wanting to kill the dog, but with the fact that a small target that is moving isn't going to be easy to hit. Especially under stress.

    Just curious, has anyone ever considered carrying something like a doggie treat to toss to the dog? While I don't think it would deter a vicious dog, it could distract most dog long enough to get away from the situation.
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