Dogs and deadly force - Page 5

Dogs and deadly force

This is a discussion on Dogs and deadly force within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Hey Darth and others: Buy yourself bear spray--shoots up to 30 feet and will put down a bear at least from what I have been ...

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Thread: Dogs and deadly force

  1. #61
    Distinguished Member Array kelcarry's Avatar
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    Hey Darth and others: Buy yourself bear spray--shoots up to 30 feet and will put down a bear at least from what I have been able to determine (only bears I ever saw were in a zoo). Do some due diligence and get info (try Gun Source on internet (TGSCOM)).Bottom line is that it is a bigger cannister with more distance and potency. In SC the law basically limits you to those little wussie lipstick containers, which is probably what you have. I asked an investigator for county prosecutor's office and he told me that they would rather see me discharge an essentially illegal cannister of bear spray than discharge a firearm---never been arrested but I carry that cannister on rides and in my car and it would be my first defense, particularly since it goes 30 ft.


  2. #62
    Member Array DarthMuffin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noway2 View Post
    @DarthMuffin: Would you be willing to share details of the experience, as in what happened, what worked, what didn't, so that perhaps we could all learn from this?
    Well, it all happened pretty quickly so there's not much to learn. Was riding my bicycle home from work, just made a left turn heading down the stem of a "T" intersection. Noticed a dog coming up from the 7-8:00 position maybe 50-75 feet away and closing FAST. Pit bull running flat out like a little missile making a beeline for ME. I was probably doing 15mph at the time. I grabbed my OC spray (velcro'd to bike frame), flipped off the "safety", and shouted "No!" and "Go home!" with no effect, this dog was focused and on a mission. He got close and made a lunge or nip at my left leg, I braked hard (It was brake/maneuver or try the OC, I chose avoidance) and that put the dog in front of me. Then I was hitting the dog (or maybe he bit the tire?) and going over the handlebars at maybe 6-8mph. When I regained my senses (a few seconds probably) I saw the dog coming out from under the bike headed towards me again. Somehow I still had the OC spray in my right hand (later noticed that I seriously dented the can when I landed) so I let 'er rip. It was a 2-oz bottle, not the teeny lipstick ones but nowhere near bear spray. I got a pathetic weeny little stream (it was the streaming type, it's usually very windy here so a fogger is a bad idea) that went maybe 4 feet, the dog was about 5-7 feet away. It would have been an easy pistol shot, even shaking with one bloody hand. I arced it up in the air trying to hit his face, I may have hit him, may not (probably not). He thought about it for a while and trotted off. Not in a hurry and not apparently in any distress. My guess is either he just didn't like the fact that I was streaming something his direction, or he could smell it and maybe that smell is familiar to him.

    After he was gone I took stock of my injuries and a passing motorist offered to help. I decided I was good enough to walk the bike the remaining 6 blocks home, wrapped a shirt (in bag on bike) around my leg where the worst of the bleeding was, and went home.

    Next time I encounter a hostile dog my procedure will be to brake immediately and jump off the bike putting it between myself and the dog, draw down and evaluate from there. I think I will even practice this some once I'm better.

  3. #63
    Member Array Eaglebeak's Avatar
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    Bearing a few scars on my left hand and arm (from a pit bull attack that came out of nowhere while I was doing my regular walk a few years ago), I can personally attest that it happened so fast that I couldn't have repelled it with anything - and ended up getting 24 stitches from a number of punctures and tears in my hand and forearm before I dropped to pin him on the ground and strangled him to death with my free hand (while the other was still being mangled in his mouth).

    I can also personally attest that it would take a virtual expert in wing-shooting to hit a rapidly-charging dog with a handgun, taser, club, or cattle-prod. During my walks from that time on, I carried two items that would still be of limited effectiveness unless you saw the attack coming a few seconds in advance. The pepper spray is probably most effective, but the Oklahoma wind made that more of a threat to me when it was blowing or coming from the wrong direction. So, the .380 SA was also carried and chambered with a birdshot round that had a lot better chance of hitting a rapidly moving target while posing the least liability of unintentional collateral damage to anyone/anything else in the immediate residential area.

  4. #64
    Distinguished Member Array kelcarry's Avatar
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    Hey Eagle: Bear spray at 30 ft and under. Wind is a variable for sure. I would think in most instances, unless it is a really windy wind, you can come up with a scenario that allows you to discharge the spray w/o doing a job on yourself. I carry a serrated knife--it is at the ready and easier to use than any other weapon I can think of in the midst of a flying flailing dog trying to attack you.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by archer51 View Post
    Just curious, has anyone ever considered carrying something like a doggie treat to toss to the dog? While I don't think it would deter a vicious dog, it could distract most dog long enough to get away from the situation.
    Seriously??? We carry: a gun; maybe a BUG, a knife, a flashlight, pepper spray, spare mags/speedloaders, etc. Now you want to throw in a baggie of doggie treats? I think I will pass, thanks.
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  6. #66
    Member Array Maxwell47's Avatar
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    Shooting Lassie? Well, I guess if Timmy hadn't fallen in the well again it might be acceptable...

  7. #67
    Senior Member Array theskunk's Avatar
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    If a dog attacks, then shot it. The owner should have had it on a leash

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by paullie View Post
    Really???? Poop happens and sometimes happens to "good guys", but most of time a clean shoot will cost you less than it would cost your wife to plant you 6 foot under.
    Paulie, an average cost of a funeral is $7,000. Attorneys fees to defend you in criminal and civil court can cost 100's of thousands of dollars. My point was the simple act of defending yourself can result in very expensive consequences. Is the alternative to let a dog bite you or bad guy hurt you? Granted, you'd be alive and the dog/owner would be dead or hurting. I guess that's a decision that a CCW holder makes in a split second.

  9. #69
    Member Array DarthMuffin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelcarry View Post
    Hey Eagle: Bear spray at 30 ft and under. Wind is a variable for sure. I would think in most instances, unless it is a really windy wind, you can come up with a scenario that allows you to discharge the spray w/o doing a job on yourself. I carry a serrated knife--it is at the ready and easier to use than any other weapon I can think of in the midst of a flying flailing dog trying to attack you.
    Ok, you've got a Pit Bull sprinting towards you from where you first noticed it as a possible threat 75 feet away (which I feel is very generous). What's the sprint-speed of a medium/large dog, maybe 25mph? If my in-the-head math is correct that gives you TWO SECONDS. I'm lucky to get the spray out in 2 seconds, much less figure out which way the wind is coming from and try to come up with a plan to orient myself correctly (or try to say "BAD DOG!" "NO!" and toss him a biscuit).

    Winds here are normally 15-20mph for a good portion of the year, with occasional gusts to 50+. In a 20mph wind the spray won't even make it the 30 feet to the dog. I wouldn't mind taking a glancing hit of spray myself if it were going to work (yeah, ruins your day but not as much as getting bit), but that's hardly guaranteed.

  10. #70
    Senior Member Array Frogbones's Avatar
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    The two dogs I came across while walking on my land....I shot before I really had time to think about much at all. Sometimes it's best to react with whats in the gut during the situation at hand, than attempt to think things out.

    Killed them with a Norinco SKS and a Truglow RDS 5 rounds....proved me right there I don't need top dollar stuff ($1200 ar, and $600 RDS) to take/defend life.

  11. #71
    Senior Member Array Frogbones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarthMuffin View Post
    Ok, you've got a Pit Bull sprinting towards you from where you first noticed it as a possible threat 75 feet away (which I feel is very generous). What's the sprint-speed of a medium/large dog, maybe 25mph? If my in-the-head math is correct that gives you TWO SECONDS. .
    got charged by a Rott at about that disitance....

    Here is my post about that scary time:
    Well, used my Firearm in force other day. LONG

  12. #72
    New Member Array Fredmertz51's Avatar
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    I live in very rural Iowa, and jog daily on gravel roads. In my 4 mile route, I have 2 large dogs that show a great "interest" in me. I have never considered drawing my 642 daily jogging carry on them. IF, I suffered physical injury, and the attack continued, I would kill without regret. But, I would have to see my own blood, and have not indication that the attack would end. Aftermath can be a real *****.

  13. #73
    Member Array paullie's Avatar
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    @ armado i said "most of the time" and "clean shoot" people act as if they shoot somebody it's gonna go to trial and they'll have spend a billion $$$$ bucks to stay out of the big house, I say most of the time all it's gonna cost you is a couple bucks of ammo and if it's a clean shoot there's not gonna be a civil trial (around these parts anyway). I know it could end up costing you big $$$ and you could end up in prison but if a person dwells on the what if to much then they pry shouldn't be carrying to begin with because when it's time to shoot then it time to shoot not contimplate what might happen if I shoot this dog/person/ninja rabbit, because if you do you will be dead and the point of a gun is to help you not be dead. One more thing is when I talk about shooting somebody, 2 or 4 legged, i'm assuming that I'm speaking with decent people that would only shoot if it was needed and lawful to do so.

  14. #74
    Distinguished Member Array GunGeezer's Avatar
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    As Clint Eastwood says, "everyone should know their limitations". I'm old, bi-lateral hip replacements, moderate to severe osteo-arthritis and a laundry list of other age related ailments. I'm not about to add a dog bite to my almost weekly doctor visits. Running is not an option, neither is shoving a body part down a dogs throat while trying to choke it to death. By FL. law, all dogs should be on leashes. Many are not because their owners believe them to be harmless. As a friend and employee of mine once said, "I've been bitten by dogs who never bit anyone before". I love dogs and don't have one today because I can't take care of one. I have dog sat for my neighbor's dogs and will do so any time they ask, but I will use whatever I need to so as not to get bitten.

  15. #75
    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eagleks View Post
    I honestly don't think some people think about how "introducing " a weapon can cause issues they haven't considered, and how shooting a dog running at them is not that particularly easy, nor is it wise many times considering what the background behind the dog is , where the round will end up, or what even a richocte may do. Now, throw in that there may be owners' who may take the gun as not ONLY a threat to the dog, but to them..... and they have a right to protect themselves as well.

    It's not all black and white. One thing I've learned in life is, that nothing is... it's all just different shades of gray.

    I have no fear of a dog attack per se, I can defend against a dog in various ways.... but there are a lot of other choices that people can use that are more effective if they don't know how to handle a dog, that doesn't require a gun. I think people thinking their "gun" is the resolution to all things, are 1) limiting their options, 2) much more liable to end up in prison.

    I have run into a lot of people who act irrationally due to their fear of dogs. I don't care about people's fear of dogs, maybe they need to get some good therapy. I've dealt with too many of them.

    My dog and I were camping in the woods 100 yrds from a guy, and my dog barked just to let me know this guy was advancing towards my camp "aggressively" .... and he traveled that 100 yrds ranting about how my dog was threatening him (100 yrds away).... and was yelling and threatening to kill my dog with a 2 1/2 ft pipe in his hand the whole way. When he got within 30 yrds of my camp, I stepped out and in order to protect my dog, and then he began threatening my life ......... I told him he needed to go to back to his camp and back off ..... when he began advancing toward me swinging it around, is the point he was introduced to a rifle pointing at his head and inviting him to leave.... once he left I then made a call to the Sheriff's Dept that they better come and get this guy. Don't know what happened when the Sheriff visited him, but they hauled him away in cuffs.
    There is such a thing as irrational fears, and I think some times the comments in these threads borderline on it.
    I am in agreement with your post. The part that I highlighted was something I brought up at one of my state senators local meetings. I told him it made no sense to me to prohibit weapons that are well suited for animal control such as sword canes. I am forced by my health to use a cane and have on occasion used it to defend myself against an animal. In one case the result was the death of the animal. I agree there are much better weapons for a fast moving attacker than a firearm. To bad the government restricts many of the safer ones from being used for defense.

    As for irrational fear of dogs. It happens all the time. That fear can result in a bite that never would have happened if the person stayed calm. Many bites are the result of running from a dog who looks scary. Its a natural response for a dog to bite running prey.

    Michael

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