Applebees in Ohio, a past situation
This is a discussion on Applebees in Ohio, a past situation within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; The thread regarding Applebees and the posting of the Gun Buster signs following passage of the the Ohio restaurant bill reminded me of an incident ...
Post By noway2
Post By rammerjammer
October 17th, 2011 02:02 PM
Applebees in Ohio, a past situation
The thread regarding Applebees and the posting of the Gun Buster signs following passage of the the Ohio restaurant bill reminded me of an incident that I experienced in an Applebees. This would have been on the order of 10-11 years ago (Applebees in Ohio posting no guns! Need your activism ASAP). It was the Applebees on Mentor, Ave in Mentor, Ohio (recalling that we have at least one member from that location). My wife and I were sitting in one of the booths that runs around the perimeter. Sitting at the bar was an obviously inebriated guy. He asked for a refill and the bar tender said no, cutting him off. As in many states, in OH, a bar tender who knowingly serves someone who is intoxicated can be held liable. When the bar tender refused to serve him, the drunk got loud and belligerent. The bar tender then did the appropriate thing, or at least proper as I was taught, and served him to deescalate the situation and then calmly called the police(*). (*I could see him walk over and pick up the phone and I assume he was calling the police, who arrived a few minutes later, but I can't say for certain that is whom he was calling). Two police officers responded. They approach the drunk at the bar and quietly spoke with him for several minutes. They then began to escort the drunk out. Unfortunately, the drunk had left his wallet on the bar. This was visually obvious to me from across the room. When they got him to the doorway, he pointed back towards the bar and could clearly be heard saying that he left his wallet and was asking for it. The officers refused to either get his wallet or to let him get his wallet. The bar tender also ignored this fact(**). After a few attempts of asking for his wallet, the drunk hauled off and slugged one of the cops in the face. He was summarily put in cuffs and drug out of the building. (**) at this point, the bar tender grabbed the guys wallet and carried it over to the remaining officer, who took it and left with it.
There are several aspects of this situation that we can consider:
1 - what would you have done if you had been a customer?
2 - Could and should have this situation been handled better. Specifically, as a customer from across the room it was obvious that the drunk was asking for his wallet which was in plain sight. Had they officers retrieved his wallet I believe he would have left peacefully. Did they knowingly instigate the assault?
3 - As was mentioned in another thread regarding a haunted house, when you witness a wrongful action involving the police do you respond in any way? At the time, I had seriously considered trying to find the police records and see about making a statement to the effect of the above statement/question. I did not, purely out of fear of retaliation by the local PD.
October 17th, 2011 02:02 PM
October 17th, 2011 02:07 PM
Stay out of it. It's not my problem. The cops should have made efforts to retrieve the drunk's wallet but that doesn't excuse the fact that he assaulted a police officer.
I don't carry a gun to look for or start a fight. I carry one to finish a fight I never wanted to be in.
Revolvers, “more elegant weapons for a more civilized age.”
October 17th, 2011 02:14 PM
I see your points, however;
1. You must also take into consideration that as a witness at a distance, you were not part of the conversation that was had between the cops and the drunk.Therefore, not all of the information was made available to you.
2. Even if he was allowed to retrieve his wallet, he was still likely going to be arrested for public intoxication.
3. I don't see how blame can be put on the cops for the moron punching one in the face.
I see no reason to treat a drunk like a learning-disabled child.
'Clinging to my guns and religion
October 17th, 2011 02:16 PM
1. Mind my own business
2. Perhaps as they were already hands on, they wanted him cuffed in the back seat, then would retrieve his wallet.
3. Wrongful is sometimes just perception.
"I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".
October 17th, 2011 03:27 PM
#2 is easy if you have been there and done that. Guantes already said it; things are hardly as the appear to an outsider looking in.
October 17th, 2011 03:47 PM
If you go grab his wallet, the drunk might think you are stealing it and escalate the situation. I think this is a no-win. Best to sit back and witness.
October 17th, 2011 04:15 PM
I agree with ^^^^^^^. I like to MMOB and let the people who are trained and get paid for it do their work. If they need witness's and ask, I'll be fair and impartial, but won't eagerly volunteer to get involved.
October 17th, 2011 05:31 PM
2. Even if he was allowed to retrieve his wallet, he was still likely going to be arrested for public intoxication
As long as your not creating some other problem, I've never seen this enforced anyplace; and, I've lived in several cities and a lot of states over the years.
Les Baer 45
N.R.A. Patron Life Member
October 18th, 2011 06:17 AM
I am certain that he would get charged with public intoxication, and rightfully so. Getting belligerent when you were told no would be grounds for that. As far as how that should be handled by the courts, is an entirely different subject. I think Sixto is write and I am also sure that there is more to this scenario than I was able to observe from where I was at. However, I remain convinced that the police deliberately and intentionally, antagonized this man into a much more serious charge. I often times wish I had, had the courage to at least make an after the fact statement to the DA but did not for fear of reprisal, and that bothers me to this day. If the facts of the case are that the officers were in the right, then my statement wouldn't mean much. If, however, there were doubt, my statement given independently, could have made a serious difference in how the man's case was handled. By this I mean the difference between getting help for whatever problems caused him to drink versus serious jail time along with all of the social and financial consequences.
October 18th, 2011 10:41 AM
To answer your questions:
1. Stay out of it, the bartender and police are handling it. Stay out of it.
2. It possibly could have been handled better, but without knowing everything that was said to the police, it's hard to second guess them.
3. From what you said the officers did not use excessive force. Striking an officer in the face, he's lucky he was able to walk out of there. If anything, I'd have informed the officers I saw the individual strike the, in the case they needed witnesses to the fact.
Freedom doesn't come free. It is bought and paid for by the lives and blood of our men and women in uniform.
NRA Life Member
October 27th, 2011 10:10 AM
It's also quite possible that the LEO's didn't consider the drunk to be "secured" until they put him in a patrol car. Or perhaps they were trying to minimize the disturbance within the restaurant by taking the whole scene outside. In both cases, without having to explain their intentions to John Q public or the perp, they may have intended to come back inside and pick up the guy's wallet. Just making the point that there are a number of different ways this might have been playing out.
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