Child At Your Door In The Middle Of The Night - Page 5

Child At Your Door In The Middle Of The Night

This is a discussion on Child At Your Door In The Middle Of The Night within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Your dogs are on good terms with your neighbors? They could distinguish GG from BG if both were wounded? Wow... wish my dogs were that ...

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  1. #61
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Your dogs are on good terms with your neighbors? They could distinguish GG from BG if both were wounded?

    Wow... wish my dogs were that smart.

    How do we "sort things out?" You going to clear the house? How well do you know the layout of the house... Ever been in it? Know where the bedrooms are? How about the basement... what's in that? anything to trip over? You gonna shine a light?

    What if you don't hear or see ANYTHING when you go over?

    This is why LEO works in teams, this is why our armed forces enter 'villes and buildings en masse. This is why snipers work from afar, and even they are not alone... spotter confirms target, and hit, and covers the back.

    Entry alone is foolish... If LEO shows up, and asks me to do this or that, I sure will... But, I honestly believe the best course of action is to at the most: Block or partially block egress... by vehicle... You won't be able to stop someone on foot, going out the back and over the fence... but you can slow his escape by vehicle long enough to at least get a plate... maybe... or a description.
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose


  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    Lima, I'd like to hear what JD says he would do in such a scenario.
    I do like the idea of calling other neighbors to put them on alert...
    For those of us who would rush over and render aid, peek in the windows, listen for whatever... Just as you arrive... this is what you see in the doorway:
    Shoot or not?
    Attachment 53926
    Call out the neighbor's name... "Hey Mike? That you?
    The only response you get is his head raises a bit, maybe his head turns more towards, you a little...
    Shoot/don't shoot?
    If it's neighbor Mike, or the BG, you still don't know...
    If it's Mike, maybe he's (make that: probably he's) in the throes of an adrenaline dump and in shock too and can't hear you well.
    If it's the BG, maybe he's in euphoria after killing Mike, the wife, and the other kids.
    I know, you'll all shine your gazillion lumen tac lights in his face and you'll know who he is...
    BTW, you're starting to feel the effects of adrenaline now as well... as well as some exertion from traipsing up there all tactical like... your vision is narrowing, your hearing is fading... and you maybe don't hear the accomplice coming up behind you ...
    or
    is that a LEO?
    Nope...
    not LEO...
    You look down and see the pointy end of a knife coming out the center of your chest...
    How'd that get therrrrr.....?
    Thump.
    You're done.
    Happy Halloween.
    Go ahead, Tell me I'm wrong...
    Your scenario makes the assumption that you remain static and immobile. If we get to keep distance between ourselves and the axe man won't that make a great deal of difference, or don't we get that option?

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  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    Lima, I'd like to hear what JD says he would do in such a scenario.
    While I don't normally post for JD he doesn't come into scenario threads often except to moderate them so last night I did ask him what he would do in this scenario.

    He flat out said, "You're right. I don't think I could stay in the house." He said if he were alone with the kids, yes, he would stay inside the house but he would be bouncing all over the place, trying to see out the windows, etc. If I were there, however, he would probably find himself driven at least outside.

    He said he didn't think he'd try to go in the neighbor's house or engage any bad guys but he'd at least be walking the perimeter of our house, looking for things he can report etc. As far as gear he would take, etc, that would be up to him and I didn't ask him to specify when we talked about it last night.

    Maybe I can convince him to actually make a post of his own in this thread.

    As far as sending in dogs.. I agree with those who cautioned that a dog may not be able to distinguish between good guy and bad guy and that could get very messy, indeed.

    Also, if JD did go out, as I called the neighbors to alert them of the threat in the area I would be telling them my husband was out there so that any neighbor who might be inclined to look around wouldn't be overly spooked to see a man walking around our house. Of course I'd also be keeping dispatchers up to date on activities as well.

    The good thing is that all of the neighbors know what JD looks like. There is also pretty good street lighting around here to help in identification of both good and bad guys.

    Might not be a bad idea to throw a glow stick in the "midnight go bag" to identify an individual as a good guy. You can put it in your pocket to conceal it if afraid a bad guy is around but hang it on a shirt or coat to identify yourself as a good guy once the rest of the good guys start coming.

  4. #64
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Response to Farronwolf:

    So, you're sneaking around the house... looking in windows, listening, mobile, and OODA looping like mad... and LEO got there in record time and sees you sneaking about... it's dark out... you just became prime suspect and he can see by the yard light that you have a gun drawn... now what?

    He has to OODA loop on you and that takes time... You are adding more elapsed time to what is going on, has gone on, in the house... You're a good man... You didn't do nothing... but the something you did is wasting more precious time to end this with any hope for the victims perhaps...

    Your scenario makes you the hero of the day... all OODA looping and stealthily sneaking about... Again: How well do you KNOW the neighbor's house... do you know all the egress points... do you know all the rooms half as well as you know your own? What, again, if the action's on second floor, and you can't see diddle to OODA loop over from outside? You going in? Sending your dogs? What?

    You get any and all options under Lima's scenario, I'm just adding developments through the added time it takes to get into position to do valuable OODA looping...

    All of my developments are based on a rural setting similar to my own... with nearest neighbors 1/4 mile away...

    This is completely different in suburbia with mirror image houses set <= 100' from one another... or in the city in row housing.

    Here, we do "take care" of each other... but there are limits to effective help. In urban developments. less so on both counts.
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post

    So, you're sneaking around the house... looking in windows, listening, mobile, and OODA looping like mad... and LEO got there in record time and sees you sneaking about... it's dark out... you just became prime suspect and he can see by the yard light that you have a gun drawn... now what?
    I'd certainly hope that IF ANYONE should choose to exit their own home, even if it's just to assess and look for more information, that that individual or someone the individual trusts would be in contact with LEOs at all time to alert them to the fact that an innocent civilian is out and about.... especially if that individual is armed.

    I agree that the last thing an LEO needs when responding to that kind of a situation is to waste time suspecting an innocent civilian who is just trying to help.

    As I mentioned, attaching a glow stick to clothing or at the very least, making yourself immediately known to responding officers with arms raised and firearm holstered while calling out, "I'm the neighbor who called it in..." would be the best way to not waste an officers time and to keep yourself from being misidentified.

    Personally, as stated, I wouldn't be out there, but for those who does decide to go outside they need to know how to keep themselves known to responding officers and not to get in the way once officers DO arrive on scene.

  6. #66
    JD
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    Lima, I'd like to hear what JD says he would do in such a scenario.

    I do like the idea of calling other neighbors to put them on alert...

    For those of us who would rush over and render aid, peek in the windows, listen for whatever... Just as you arrive... this is what you see in the doorway:

    Shoot or not?

    Attachment 53926


    Call out the neighbor's name... "Hey Mike? That you?

    If I were alone, I would not be leaving the house that much is certain. While staying inside would be torture, my priorities have changed as I am now solely responsible for at least two children, fist thing would be to secure the home, call LE while arming up, sure if I'm awake my pistol is usually on me but we've now gone from "it could happen" to it's happening down the street", rifle's coming out of the case. Ideally I'd try to get the kids in the basement, kill the lights on the main floor and start a watch pattern from in the house. If the 9-1-1 operator wants to keep me on the phone that's fine.

    Now if Lima was home, different story, the first thing is that Lima is minding the children and feeding info to the 9-1-1 operator, once that's under way I'm making sure she is armed etc.

    2: We have a deputy down the street and I have comm capability with the SO via radio so I would probably arm up, w/ rifle pistol/radio/light and head for the neighbors house while radioing in my appearance/presence etc. to dispatch while awaiting a SO response.

    Now as far as the picture above goes? Seriously? I'm going to ask the back-lit guy with an axe who he is?

    How about drop the _______axe!!!! If the axe isn't let go of and that threat approaches, he's getting dropped.

    3rd:

    I would more than likely NOT enter the structure, room clearing solo is not fun, especially when it's not your rooms being cleared. I would remain on scene, thankfully we're in an older neighborhood and most houses have mature trees that can provide adequate cover (I would be worried about the barricaded gunman scenario and as such would not be overly interested in patrolling the perimeter of the scene) until LE arrived and await their instructions, if a lone officer arrived and was willing to take my assistance in house I'd give it. If more than one officer arrives I will wait outside should I be allowed and watch their backs or inform more arriving officers of what's what when they arrive or provide whatever assistance is needed.

    If while awaiting the SO to arrive and the aggressor attempted to leave the residence, I would intervene with caution. If no weapons are visible I would hold fire until the aggressor attempted to come closer to me, if they were armed, they were clearly ID'd and armed, I might respond with instant lethal force pending on the type of weapon they have. If the aggressor was unarmed, and tried to leave the residence by vehicle, and I was armed with a rifle, I would shoot out the tires of the vehicle as soon as possible so that they do not use the vehicle as a weapon against myself or responding officers.


    Now...if it was the Deputy attacking his family, I would most likely NOT leave the house as the odds of him being armed with ranged weapons are understandably higher as well as possibly having a more tactically proficient adversary that is able to listen in on radio traffic until we're able able to brick his radio...


    Without taking too much time to think about this and give a three page battle plan that's about it I think.

  7. #67
    Ex Member Array azchevy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    Your dogs are on good terms with your neighbors? They could distinguish GG from BG if both were wounded?

    Wow... wish my dogs were that smart.

    How do we "sort things out?" You going to clear the house? How well do you know the layout of the house... Ever been in it? Know where the bedrooms are? How about the basement... what's in that? anything to trip over? You gonna shine a light?

    What if you don't hear or see ANYTHING when you go over?

    This is why LEO works in teams, this is why our armed forces enter 'villes and buildings en masse. This is why snipers work from afar, and even they are not alone... spotter confirms target, and hit, and covers the back.

    Entry alone is foolish... If LEO shows up, and asks me to do this or that, I sure will... But, I honestly believe the best course of action is to at the most: Block or partially block egress... by vehicle... You won't be able to stop someone on foot, going out the back and over the fence... but you can slow his escape by vehicle long enough to at least get a plate... maybe... or a description.
    The dogs are an early warning. Not many people own "police dogs" or "guard dogs" that go in and start biting people. They have house pets. Dogs are going to be excited, on alert, and have better smell, hearing, and night vision than we do. My rotts will be able to go in the house and identify and bark and growl at humans well before I can find them. They will even provide an intimidation factor that may cause the perps to leave and or attack them, giving me the critical time needed to dispatch them or secure the neighbors and determine if they have firearms on them. I love my dogs to death but they are expendable and the reason I got them. While you are busy shooting or stabbing my dogs, I am shooting you. It's not like the dogs are going to go in and start police dogging everyone and draggin them out.... they are going to go in sense the stress and start growling or barking. If someone gets bit that is a lot better than raped killed and burned like the Petit family suffered.
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  8. #68
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    Lots of good responses here. While I would certainly call 911 and keep the child safe, a possibility might be to drive a vehicle by and see what is happening. Part of what I might do would depend on who is in danger, and on how safe my home is.

    Giving a loud blast on the horn may spook the BGs and get them to leave. There is no way I am going to run in and try to rescue them. It is way too easy to misunderstand the situation.

    A couple of years ago I thought I heard gunshots from the neighbors to the west. Their house is about 250 feet from mine. It was dark, but not late. From inside, I observed some people moving about. Since they are elderly, I decided to arm up and go out. I knew I could get very close without being seen.

    When I got over there, still unseen, I recognized their oldest (and trusted) daughter moving about among the other people there. She was acting as if nothing was wrong. I watched for a few more minutes. She and some others came out, got into vehicles and left.

    The front door was still open and I could see the outline of my neighbor's head standing in the kitchen door like everything was all right. She was actually in front of the stove, cooking, so I went home.

    I casually asked the next day about the gunshots. They ended up to be at a skunk trying to get into his bird pen.
    Last edited by steelhawk; October 21st, 2011 at 09:41 PM.

  9. #69
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    JD...

    Cognizant answers, thanks.

    As to the guy with the axe (or knife, or gun) It could be a bad guy, it could be a good guy... Either way, neither may respond to your order to drop the axe...

    If the BG, he may actually be in a euphoric state (or drug affected), barely registering you, your yelling, or much of anything else...

    If it's your neighbor, he may be just as mentally addled as a BG would be.

    Shock, adrenaline, the effects of life or death battle at close quarters. For that matter, while he may have been victorious, if he were to turn 45, you might see a blade stuck into his back. But, back lit as he is, you may not yet be able to tell who he is.

    The dogs will respond to the tension adrenaline and pheremones of all those in the house... If it's dark, and your neighbor has been fortunate enough to dispatch the BG; with all the natural chemicals coursing through his body as outlined above... he might start attacking the dogs, thinking (or not) that they are another threat...

    I'm not really trying to argue here... I'm just pointing out some possibilities for the various iterations of the original scenario presented...

    This scenario has really gotten me to thinking... about the risks involved in rendering aid to others... even those you know or think you know, (like neighbors).
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    Response to Farronwolf:

    So, you're sneaking around the house... looking in windows, listening, mobile, and OODA looping like mad... and LEO got there in record time and sees you sneaking about... it's dark out... you just became prime suspect and he can see by the yard light that you have a gun drawn... now what? You comply with the officers request, and since the cell phone is still in my pocket on with the dispatcher, they can relay ect. that you are the one reporting,

    He has to OODA loop on you and that takes time... You are adding more elapsed time to what is going on, has gone on, in the house... You're a good man... You didn't do nothing... but the something you did is wasting more precious time to end this with any hope for the victims perhaps... Possibly taking more time, or possibly there are various other neighbors around that let the officer know it is a concerned community and they need to act

    Your scenario makes you the hero of the day... all OODA looping and stealthily sneaking about... Again: How well do you KNOW the neighbor's house... do you know all the egress points... do you know all the rooms half as well as you know your own? What, again, if the action's on second floor, and you can't see diddle to OODA loop over from outside? You going in? Sending your dogs? What? No 2 story houses in my neighborhood. I know some of the floor plans, some I have never been inside.

    You get any and all options under Lima's scenario, I'm just adding developments through the added time it takes to get into position to do valuable OODA looping...

    All of my developments are based on a rural setting similar to my own... with nearest neighbors 1/4 mile away...

    This is completely different in suburbia with mirror image houses set <= 100' from one another... or in the city in row housing.

    Here, we do "take care" of each other... but there are limits to effective help. In urban developments. less so on both counts.
    My scenario doesn't make me the hero of the day or anything of that nature as you say. It is simply what my response might be to a neighbor's child showing up on my doorstep based on Lima's posting. Everything is fluid and changing, and we all have our thresholds of what we will tolerate. Mine are different than many others, but they are what I can live with.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  11. #71
    Distinguished Member Array 21bubba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    Response to Farronwolf:

    So, you're sneaking around the house... looking in windows, listening, mobile, and OODA looping like mad... and LEO got there in record time and sees you sneaking about... it's dark out... you just became prime suspect and he can see by the yard light that you have a gun drawn... now what?

    He has to OODA loop on you and that takes time... You are adding more elapsed time to what is going on, has gone on, in the house... You're a good man... You didn't do nothing... but the something you did is wasting more precious time to end this with any hope for the victims perhaps...

    Your scenario makes you the hero of the day... all OODA looping and stealthily sneaking about... Again: How well do you KNOW the neighbor's house... do you know all the egress points... do you know all the rooms half as well as you know your own? What, again, if the action's on second floor, and you can't see diddle to OODA loop over from outside? You going in? Sending your dogs? What?

    You get any and all options under Lima's scenario, I'm just adding developments through the added time it takes to get into position to do valuable OODA looping...

    All of my developments are based on a rural setting similar to my own... with nearest neighbors 1/4 mile away...

    This is completely different in suburbia with mirror image houses set <= 100' from one another... or in the city in row housing.

    Here, we do "take care" of each other... but there are limits to effective help. In urban developments. less so on both counts.
    With all the what if's, maybe's, possibilites,and could be's you are concerned about I believe your best course of action would be to stay at home and hope the police save the day.
    Not everyone (including me) wants to be a hero, but I do have a conscience and so do others.
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  12. #72
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    hre

    My scenario doesn't make me the hero of the day or anything of that nature as you say. It is simply what my response might be to a neighbor's child showing up on my doorstep based on Lima's posting. Everything is fluid and changing, and we all have our thresholds of what we will tolerate. Mine are different than many others, but they are what I can live with.
    I understand that... I too would want to do all I could to help... I'm just really dealing with the minutia of details here... and none I present are out of the realm of posibility. In fact, I think they might be pretty accurate... In my neck of the woods, my neighbors houses, etc.

    For me, the possibilities of this occuring are not too far out there... though I will admit the odds of it happening are quite slim. So, I thought about the logistics of the "totality of the circumstances" as they apply to me... Again, not trying to argue, merely positing the likelyhoods if one were to take assertive action in my neck of the woods, so to speak. Everything is fluid and chaging as you say... but all of the what ifs I posed regarding the condition of the BG or of the neighbor in a situation as set up... are actually probably quite realistic... We know that those in battle suffer adrenaline dumps, we know that psychopathic killers experience euphoric feelings during and after their crimes.

    In Lima's OP, her statement was
    When asked what's wrong the child says that someone is in his/her house with a knife and hurting the rest of the family. Only s/he was able to escape to find help.
    So, what is it? A crack head looking for money? someone on PCP? a psychopath? what..? Good neighbor is a capable average man... he's suffering the onslaught of an attack, apparently vicious... the man is hurting the rest of the family...


    Quote Originally Posted by 21bubba View Post
    With all the what if's, maybe's, possibilites,and could be's you are concerned about I believe your best course of action would be to stay at home and hope the police save the day.
    Not everyone (including me) wants to be a hero, but I do have a conscience and so do others.
    I have the same conscience you do... And, I'm doing more than getting out of bed cranky... and going to give whatever help was needed. There are limitations to what we CAN do... and you are forgetting the time factor...

    I'm assuming, that while the 7-9 year old child is wending he/r way to my house a 1/4 of a mile away... a whole lot of stuff is happening in he/r house... not much of it good. I'm assuming that while I'm getting dressed and prepped, more stuff is happening... I'm assuming that by the time I've gotten there.. the bad man has hurt the family pretty badly... or the family has successfully fought back... but I don't know... and neither do you... Assuming 10 minutes elapsed time unless in a suburbian development... or in town... A whole lot can go on... people dead... bad guy dead...

    You arrive, the house is dark... how much time to ascertain what has or is happening?

    All of my what ifs are very real probabilities in the scenario as painted... BECAUSE OF THE TIME FACTOR if it happens in my neighbor hood... and maybe even in yours.
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    Your dogs are on good terms with your neighbors? They could distinguish GG from BG if both were wounded?

    Wow... wish my dogs were that smart.
    Since the dogs will be in my house with my wife and the child, they don't need to have brain surgeon IQ's to be protective. They just need to obey my wife and be aggressive to anyone who is acting in a threatening manner, both of which they have no problem doing.



    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    How do we "sort things out?" You going to clear the house? How well do you know the layout of the house... Ever been in it? Know where the bedrooms are? How about the basement... what's in that? anything to trip over? You gonna shine a light?

    What if you don't hear or see ANYTHING when you go over?
    I would knock on the door and identify myself and would repeat this several times before entering if no one answered or let me in. (this is assuming I can let myself in, I'm not kicking the door in.)

    Since I don't know the layout of the house, I would have to start with the rooms closest to my point of entry and work my way thru the rooms one floor at a time (if there are multiple floors). If there is a basement it is going to be last, since it would afford a BG far less of a view of the house's perimeter I would assume it would be the last choice of where to hang out.

    I probably wouldn't have a flashlight so I would have to use light switches, could be a problem or not.

    If I didn't see or hear anything I would simply head home, wait for the police and probably have a sandwich... I hear looking for bad guys can burn a lot of calories.

    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    LEO works in teams, this is why our armed forces enter 'villes and buildings en masse. This is why snipers work from afar, and even they are not alone... spotter confirms target, and hit, and covers the back.

    Entry alone is foolish... If LEO shows up, and asks me to do this or that, I sure will... But, I honestly believe the best course of action is to at the most: Block or partially block egress... by vehicle... You won't be able to stop someone on foot, going out the back and over the fence... but you can slow his escape by vehicle long enough to at least get a plate... maybe... or a description.
    I understand going over solo isn't the optimal and most efficient way to approach this sort of thing, but at least I would be doing the best I could under the circumstances to prevent someone from being hurt or perhaps killed. If that is foolish, so be it.
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  14. #74
    Member Array Sarisataka's Avatar
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    Wish I lived in a rural area *sigh* someday...

    But in my urban situation... on one side a long time neighbor, carries, I know his weapons almost as well as my own. He could handle himself.
    On the other side, next three are rentals; some good people, some have been served no-knock warrants. All have kids in that age range and we know them all. This scenario is scarily conceivable.

    My reaction would be bring the child in, call 911 while everyone goes upstairs- the best choke point in the house. Cover the approach with 12 ga. while wife holds the carbine. Wait for the cavalry. Anyone coming in that does not have bright yellow POLICE across the front will come under fire.
    Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor liberty to purchase power.
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  15. #75
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    I'd have to investigate... Thats just how I'm wired...

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