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BG gun on innocent shoot no shoot?

9K views 99 replies 31 participants last post by  Floyd D. Barber 
#1 ·
In thinking about different scenarios and what I would do one that troubles me is this. You are in a store BG enters and shoots someone for effect then points gun at cashier and demands money. BG is not watching me and I am close enough to make a head shot if I was at the range ( not under stress ). If he did not have his gun pointed at cashier I would fire an aimed shot at his head and follow with multiple shots at torso. My concern is with his gun on cashier if I shoot him would he reflexively pull trigger and possibly shoot cashier? What is the physiology of this? Would a head shot make him go limp or would he tense and potentially pull trigger? What would you do?
 
#51 ·
Oh, and just one more thing....
and I'm done with this thread until I can find the approprate tort case.

In just a few weeks (maybe months or years) from now, the economy really goes south, and S.S.checks won't buy a week's worth of groceries... So, everybody's having a tough time...

The clerk is your mother... or your wife... working part time to help make ends meet, and while she supports your decision to carry, she's really not "into it" and just laughs when you suggest super secret code words that would make her drop like a sack o' taters when you utter them...

How's the physiology of that shot lookin' now, chum?
 
#53 ·
If you are so wrapped around the axle of how drawing, and shooting to save your life will ruin your life with criminal prosecution, civil liability,
and the financial cost you may incur, I suggest that you should never carry a gun... or drive a car... or own a house.... or have a child...

I can see the room for overthinking in previous scenarios where nobody has been hurt (yet) and the BG (so far) "appears" only interested in scoring his quick cash..... in this scenario, someone has already been shot. Where is the room for logically believing that he won't get the till and kill every
witness in the place?

If you do a headshot, might he shoot the clerk by reflex? Maybe.
Might someone in the place have a fatal heart attack? Maybe.
I'm not caring so much about the mythical butterfly effect. I'm worried about the bullets that come out of MY gun, or in MY direction.

Lawyer induced cowardice will do you no good in the middle of a gunfight, and when someone has already been shot, it's a gunfight.

Is it better to be shot than to be sued?

I can recover from poor, a lot faster than I can recover from dead.
 
#55 ·
If he shoots the clerk, I'm wasting him. If he doesn't shoot the clerk, I'm shooting him as soon as he turns towards me to leave.

If he doesn't shoot the clerk, and does not even see me before he flees, I'm giving a good description to the police when they show up.

If he shoots the clerk, I'll feel real bad the clerk got shot, but at least I'll get even for that. But the clerk getting shot won't be because of any action I took and failed to execute with precision.

If I was right behind him, and I could make a contact shot, I might place the muzzle of my Glock at the base of his brain stem, angled up toward the top of his forehead and blow the top of his head off. But if I'm 5 or 6 feet away, I doubt I'd try a brain stem shot at any distance beyond 6 inches away. I'd likely be shaking too much.
 
#57 ·
I understand that maat, but your surviving family members may not see it that way. Sorry buddy, the clerk is on their own.

If I were the clerk, I'd want someone to shoot them too. But I can understand peoples reluctance.

For what it's worth, I wouldn't be a retail store clerk without being armed, whether it violated company policy or not.
 
#58 ·
The scumbag commiting the felony should be the one responsible for any outcome or harm to individuals during situation as they are the one that caused it to take place. Now how that plays out in a Civil case if the clerk is harmed and their family decides to pursue a case against me is something I would worry about after the fact not when I had already seen one innocent person needlesly harmed.

"The rule of felony murder is a legal doctrine in some common law jurisdictions that broadens the crime of murder in two ways. First, when an offender kills accidentally or without specific intent to kill in the course of an applicable felony, what might have been manslaughter is escalated to murder. Second, it makes any participant in such a felony criminally liable for any deaths that occur during or in furtherance of that felony'
 
#59 ·
And, quoting from the same source (and naming it), Wikipedia:

The reasonable person standard is by no means democratic in its scope; it is, contrary to popular conception, intentionally distinct from that of the "average person," who is not necessarily guaranteed to always be reasonable.[9] The reasonable person will weigh all of the following factors before acting:

* the foreseeable risk of harm his actions create versus the utility of his actions;
* the extent of the risk so created;
* the likelihood such risk will actually cause harm to others;
* any alternatives of lesser risk, and the costs of those alternatives.
So, in some jurisdictions, Taking "the shot" while the BG's gun is pointed at the clerk, could end up in a charge of Criminally negligent homicide, or Reckless Homicide.

From Us Legal:
Reckless homicide is the killing of another person by a reckless act. In some states, involuntary manslaughter committed by use of a motor vehicle is called reckless homicide. Laws governing reckless homicide vary by jurisdiction.

In general, "recklessly" means that a person acts recklessly with respect to circumstances surrounding the conduct or the result of the conduct when the person is aware of, but consciously disregards, a substantial and unjustifiable risk that the circumstances exist or the result will occur. The risk must be of such a nature and degree that its disregard constitutes a gross deviation from the standard of care that an ordinary person would exercise under all the circumstances as viewed from the accused person's standpoint..
And, further; in some jurisdictions, being found innocent of the criminal charges does not exclude the possibility of a wrongful death and related civil tort suits. (Regardless of your belief in the innocence or guilt of the man; the O.J. Simpson case is an excellent example.)

And, when the prosecutor or plaintiff's attorney brings in experts from FBI HRT, SWAT, and other trained shooters who would say that in their expert opinion, they "would not take the shot while the gun was pointed at the victim." You could be found guilty or liable or both.

Is any of this likely to happen? About as likely as the original scenario. Once the BG has Committed to the act (actually, the second act, because he already shot one innocent) it will all be over, one way or another, in less than 5 seconds.

To guarantee a good chance of success, you must act between the first shooting and the aiming of the gun at the clerk. Or after the aiming at the clerk (whether she is alive or dead).

You can get the muzzle off the clerk, as I proposed, or as Hiram did, by yelling at the perp, drawing his gun off the clerk and into your direction, perhaps. And that is after the gun is aimed at the clerk, and before it is aimed at you.
 
#63 ·
Having a CCW does not make you a super hero or a LEO, thus it does not require you to involve yourself in ongoing crimes.

Stay alert, stay alive and be a good witness.
 
#64 ·
No sir, a CCW does not require you to involve yourself but being a decent human being, with a duty to help others in need, obligates at least a few of us to do so. None of us consider ourselves cops just because we carry a gun. I wasn't a cop when I volunteered to serve in the military either. I felt a duty to protect others. Not everyone who carries a gun is an idiot. Some of us have carried and used guns in more dangerous situations than what was laid out here.

Staying alive may mean taking some action other than hiding behind a desk.
 
#75 ·
I'm far from selfish. I'm actually very charitable, for someone who's been dealt the blows I have in life. But that's neither here nor there.

Giving (charity) doesn't get you dead, imprisoned, sued.

If I wanted to be armed and be tasked with protecting/liberating people on command I would have joined the military. Oh wait, did that.

If I wanted to be armed and tasked with protecting the general public from themselves and others for a living I would have become a LEO. Oh wait, yup did that too.

As a private citizen I am only responsible for myself, my wife and my two children. Amazing how difficult this concept seems for some of you to grasp.

You must he a "sheepdog" huh? Lmao.
 
#83 ·
Based on the OP:

BG is not watching me and I am close enough to make a head shot if I was at the range ( not under stress ). If he did not have his gun pointed at cashier I would fire an aimed shot at his head and follow with multiple shots at torso. My concern is with his gun on cashier if I shoot him would he reflexively pull trigger and possibly shoot cashier? What is the physiology of this? Would a head shot make him go limp or would he tense and potentially pull trigger? What would you do?
Does not see me... Assumed that BG is, after the first shot, not only "jacked up" on external chemicals, but also under the influence of adrenaline. As a result of his first shot, unless he came in with ears on, is already suffering from auditory exclusion, and some of the tunnel vision effects of the adrenaline.

Cannot make the shot while the gun is on the clerk... you cannot guarantee a MO totally incapacitating shot... how do you get the BG and the muzzle of his gun off the clerk? One of the first responses to the post was... "hey buddy, bang!"

So, according to the OP, I have not been seen, probably not been heard (my assumption), and I only have to get the muzzle of his gun off the clerk incrementally... as soon as that occurs, based on the OP's "I can do this at the range..." I also assume he has time to aim the gun as he would at the range. Once the muzzle of the BGs gun is off the clerk, bang... I've only broken it down incrementally time wise.... it IS essentially "hey buddy, bang."


So, you will wait for him to execute the clerk. He's already shot one, so you know he will most likely shoot the clerk, no matter what your actioins are. You are the one not getting it.
Basing your strategy on a movie is beyond stupid.
Not basing the strategy on the movie, the movie was brought to mind later by a subsequent post, but illustrates the concept extremely well.... The target for a MO shot is small, it is invisible, and it is moving.... without guaranteed success, too risky.... so draw the attention of the BG off his current target, even a little bit, take your aimed shot and follow ups as needed.

Read take your shot?
 
#89 ·
BD, you really do have problems with comprehension, don't you?

Let me 'splain it to you...

I did not say that one should be a good witness. I said that is the "correct" answer in Iowa, based on the no longer required permit to carry courses.
I did say "if you want a shot you have to get his gun on you."
After a retired LEO answered the scenario with Hey buddy BANG, I clarified my meaning that you have to get the BG's gun off of the clerk (not actually ON you) but I did not make that clear.
Another retired LEO stated that he agreed with the first... only more derrogatory in order to get BG's FULL attention.

Now, going to the OP's request for the physiology of the shot... one poster linked to the wikipedia article on the Medulla Oblongata... In fact he posted while I was writing my first response.

After a few posts the OP chimed in with what he meant by the "physiology of the shot"
more of the physiology of what could happen
There are concerns as to what can happen after the shot, (legal, civil and otherwise) and I referenced the Omaha Walgreens shooting...
I also said:
If I can't guarantee a MO shot... (because I cannot guarantee any shot at a moving invisible target) while he has the gun on the clerk, I can't take the shot... If I can get him to turn.... I have opportunity hopefully only putting myself at risk. But I'd hope to end it before any lead came my way...
(red added for this post.)

I CANNOT GUARANTEE AN MO SHOT, never said I could... If I could, I would shoot him with his gun on the clerk... since I cannot, I choose to attempt to draw his attention to me.. and fire before he is "on me" and after he is off the clerk.

While you, on the other hand, have said no where in this thread what you would do... you would probably just yap yap yap and tell whoever did anything that they were wrong.... But go ahead and knock yourself out until your fingers are bloody stumps...

And as to another poster, your comments are not backed up by some "real deal guys" here who are retired, who have met and dealt with more Bubbas than you have met in your life.
 
#94 ·
BD, you really do have problems with comprehension, don't you?

Let me 'splain it to you...

I did not say that one should be a good witness. I said that is the "correct" answer in Iowa, based on the no longer required permit to carry courses.
I did say "if you want a shot you have to get his gun on you."
After a retired LEO answered the scenario with Hey buddy BANG, I clarified my meaning that you have to get the BG's gun off of the clerk (not actually ON you) but I did not make that clear.
Another retired LEO stated that he agreed with the first... only more derrogatory in order to get BG's FULL attention.

Now, going to the OP's request for the physiology of the shot... one poster linked to the wikipedia article on the Medulla Oblongata... In fact he posted while I was writing my first response.

After a few posts the OP chimed in with what he meant by the "physiology of the shot"


There are concerns as to what can happen after the shot, (legal, civil and otherwise) and I referenced the Omaha Walgreens shooting...
I also said:


(red added for this post.)

I CANNOT GUARANTEE AN MO SHOT, never said I could... If I could, I would shoot him with his gun on the clerk... since I cannot, I choose to attempt to draw his attention to me.. and fire before he is "on me" and after he is off the clerk.

While you, on the other hand, have said no where in this thread what you would do... you would probably just yap yap yap and tell whoever did anything that they were wrong.... But go ahead and knock yourself out until your fingers are bloody stumps...

And as to another poster, your comments are not backed up by some "real deal guys" here who are retired, who have met and dealt with more Bubbas than you have met in your life.
Since this is pointless, I'll just refer to Proverbs 14:7
 
#96 ·
Let us both move on from this. I know I have some statements I shouldn't have. There are too many important things going on in the world.
 
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