BG gun on innocent shoot no shoot? - Page 2

BG gun on innocent shoot no shoot?

This is a discussion on BG gun on innocent shoot no shoot? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by oakchas What'd they tell you in PCW class? Oh wait, you don't need that here any more.... just a handgun safety course, ...

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Thread: BG gun on innocent shoot no shoot?

  1. #16
    Senior Member Array Chad Rogers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    What'd they tell you in PCW class? Oh wait, you don't need that here any more.... just a handgun safety course, no weapons handling required.

    "Be a good witness." is the "correct" answer in Iowa... I'm not sayin that's the only answer... And I'm glad you can shoot nice tight groups at the range. But now, even if the proper head shot would bring down the BG without reflexively pulling the trigger... Even if you know what you have to hit, precisely; can you GUARANTEE the shot?

    If you want a shot, you have to get his gun on you... and know what's behind his new target (you)... once he's aiming at you, go ahead, if you feel that lucky.

    He shoots the clerk, reflexively, you have NO LIFE. You will be bankrupt. He shoots at you, but misses, and hits another bystander... a lawyer might have you served for that, too. While it IS a FACT that every bullet that comes from YOUR gun has a lawsuit attached to it... it's also quite possible that every bullet you cause to be fired (intentionally, inadvertently, whatever) may also have a lawsuit attached, with your name on it.

    Your permit doesn't make you a cop. Your permit doesn't make you a superhero. You got the permit to protect yourself and or your loved ones... You are not a member of the justice league. And, honestly here, I'm not suggesting you're thinking that way... But it needs to be made clear... Unless YOU are in danger of losing your own life, or of suffering GREAT bodily injury... it is probably best not to plan on using your weapon for anything but making those tight little groups at the range... and to be grateful for it.
    Let's see. The bad guy already shot one person for effect. And he has gun pointed at head of store employee. The odds are quite high he will kill him/her as soon as he gets the money. (The need to get rid of witnesses coupled with demonstrated propensity for violence.)

    Some people don't fret over minutia. Some people are willing to make a stand to protect somebody other than themselves.
    Deuce130 and Tally XD like this.


  2. #17
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hiram25 View Post
    The last think I want is his gun on me! I only want it to click in his mind that he's got a possible problem and while he's thinking about that, his mind is off the clerk, he gets shot before he can register what he should do next.
    I see your point about having the gun pointing my way... But even if it doesn't come my way... I wonder if the BG having decided to do the robbery doesn't also experience the effects of adrenaline dump (occular occlusion, tunnel vision), unless he's done this frequently. So, he may not hear you... or if he does, suffering from adrenaline effects, he might face you with the gun to compensate for tunnel vision. I think I would in his place... Your opportunity occurs as he is turning.

    And, Hiram and other LEOs, even if off duty, your response might be covered under the color of law, where Joe citizen's might not. Coming to the aid of others is fraught with financial danger. That is not to say I wouldn't do the right thing just because it is the right thing to do, but it is a consideration.

    Take the Omaha Walgreen's shooting as an example... There was some question as to whether the permit held by the CCW holder was valid where the shooting occurred. There was some legal harassment, that may have been of minor cost. The perp had an unloaded shotty. One of the CCW holder's bullets ended up in the chamber of the shotty... no one but the BG was shot... but what if?

    If I can't guarantee a MO shot... while he has the gun on the clerk, I can't take the shot... If I can get him to turn.... I have opportunity hopefully only putting myself at risk. But I'd hope to end it before any lead came my way...
    Guantes likes this.
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

  3. #18
    Member Array macg19's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ducmonster View Post
    In thinking about different scenarios and what I would do one that troubles me is this. You are in a store BG enters and shoots someone for effect then points gun at cashier and demands money. BG is not watching me and I am close enough to make a head shot if I was at the range ( not under stress ). If he did not have his gun pointed at cashier I would fire an aimed shot at his head and follow with multiple shots at torso. My concern is with his gun on cashier if I shoot him would he reflexively pull trigger and possibly shoot cashier? What is the physiology of this? Would a head shot make him go limp or would he tense and potentially pull trigger? What would you do?
    It's a good question, one I have thought about.

    Sure, circumstances may dictate just be a good witness, but what if it's the same scenario we have seen many times where some crazy guy ultimately kills everyone in the pharmacy/hair salon/IHOP - when and how to you take this shot and what is likely to be the BGs reflex - cause if I'm next no way I'm not shooting.
    "A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools."
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  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chad Rogers View Post
    Let's see. The bad guy already shot one person for effect. And he has gun pointed at head of store employee. The odds are quite high he will kill him/her as soon as he gets the money. (The need to get rid of witnesses coupled with demonstrated propensity for violence.)

    Some people don't fret over minutia. Some people are willing to make a stand to protect somebody other than themselves.
    In this scenario, a good witness will likely be a dead witness shortly, anyway.

  5. #20
    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    For those who are having trouble with "do I have the right to help someone else in this situation"?

    For me he has already shot one person just for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. QUESTION,, Will you be next? I'm shooting him because I feared for my life not someone elses. Yes he has the gun on the clerk but you could be next to die not the clerk. Once he sees you he don't need anything from you SO..

    The way I see it you had to shoot him before he shot you. That would be what I told the LEO once they got there. He had already shot one thought I would be next.
    tcox4freedom likes this.
    It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby. reinman45

    "Is this persons bad behavior worth me having to kill them over?" Guantes

  6. #21
    Member Array TravisABQ's Avatar
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    A BG "shoots someone for effect" and I am NOT supposed to take this as an imminent threat to my life?!

    Seriously?

    To heck with the clerk, I'm worried about MY life!
    tcox4freedom and Bubbiesdad like this.

  7. #22
    Member Array PPKman's Avatar
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    In my state, shoot.
    In principle, principle and practice are the same, but in practice, they're not.

  8. #23
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    In this scenario, a good witness will likely be a dead witness shortly, anyway.
    There's no reason a "good witness" carrying a weapon can't seek cover, and prepare to defend themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill MO View Post
    For those who are having trouble with "do I have the right to help someone else in this situation"?

    For me he has already shot one person just for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. QUESTION,, Will you be next? I'm shooting him because I feared for my life not someone elses. Yes he has the gun on the clerk but you could be next to die not the clerk. Once he sees you he don't need anything from you SO..

    The way I see it you had to shoot him before he shot you. That would be what I told the LEO once they got there. He had already shot one thought I would be next.
    So, when do you take that shot... if you didn't see the first victim go down, and you see the gun at the head of the teller/clerk? You counting on that MO shot?

    Quote Originally Posted by TravisABQ View Post
    A BG "shoots someone for effect" and I am NOT supposed to take this as an imminent threat to my life?!

    Seriously?

    To heck with the clerk, I'm worried about MY life!
    Ahh, you would shoot even if the gun was pointed at the clerk... Bubba's just waitin' for you in the pen... You'll like him... or else.
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

  9. #24
    Senior Member Array Chad Rogers's Avatar
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    Ahh, you would shoot even if the gun was pointed at the clerk... Bubba's just waitin' for you in the pen... You'll like him... or else.
    Nervous Nellieism at its finest.

    So, when do you take that shot... if you didn't see the first victim go down, and you see the gun at the head of the teller/clerk? You counting on that MO shot?
    Actually reading the original post, and making the logical inferences from it, is very informative.

  10. #25
    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    For me if I'm to afraid to use the gun I carry then I have to ask the question Why do I carry? Some DA may not like the idea I used it and send or at least try to send me to jail.

    If I am in fear for my life I use my gun, let everything else sort its self out later. I at least want to be sucking air when it's over.

    The big thing here is are you in fear for yourself or someone else and can you articulate that to others.
    Chad Rogers and tcox4freedom like this.
    It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby. reinman45

    "Is this persons bad behavior worth me having to kill them over?" Guantes

  11. #26
    Senior Member Array Chad Rogers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill MO View Post
    For me if I'm to afraid to use the gun I carry then I have to ask the question Why do I carry? Some DA may not like the idea I used it and send or at least try to send me to jail.
    No DA is going to send you to jail for shooting somebody who has 1) already shot somebody, and 2) is now pointing a gun at a store employee's head. That's just manufactured "fearism."

  12. #27
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chad Rogers View Post
    Nervous Nellieism at its finest.
    So, you would shoot if the gun was pointed at the clerk? Fine, you don't end up in prison. You killed the badguy. Great for you! Phyllis, the clerk, survived as well... she's a quadriplegic. But, thanks to you, has a straw operated power wheelchair, a live in nurse, and nice ability-friendly apartment.

    You never met Bubba, you lucky guy... Bankruptcy wasn't so tough, and the homeless shelter's food ain't bad... you miss the wife and kids, she took 'em home to mom and dad's after you lost the house... and, if you hold a job, all the money goes to Phyllis anyway... But it really was a good shoot, except for that.
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

  13. #28
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    You didn't make BG do anything; he's already shot one and has the gun in another's face. What makes you think he's not pulling the trigger regardless?

    What you do depends on your state laws and/or your moral character.
    SigHawk likes this.
    Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... "For What It's Worth" Buffalo Springfield

  14. #29
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    You didn't make BG do anything; he's already shot one and has the gun in another's face. What makes you think he's not pulling the trigger regardless?
    Absolutely true... BTW, Whatever happened to Bernhard Goetz?

    All it takes is a lawyer willing to take the case.

    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    What you do depends on your state laws and/or your moral character.
    In the end, the state's laws mean nothing... it's dependent on your moral character.

    I am in no way saying I would not shoot. I would truly make an attempt to stop the threat with no risk to anyone but myself... that's not always possible...

    All of the rest though, really does enter into the equation. In the hands of a zealous prosecutor, you might go to jail for the death or injury of the clerk. In the hands of a zealous attorney, you could also end up bankrupt, just defending yourself from civil litigation. Especially where the rules of reasonable doubt do not come into play.
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

  15. #30
    Senior Member Array Chad Rogers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    So, you would shoot if the gun was pointed at the clerk? Fine, you don't end up in prison. You killed the badguy. Great for you! Phyllis, the clerk, survived as well... she's a quadriplegic. But, thanks to you, has a straw operated power wheelchair, a live in nurse, and nice ability-friendly apartment.

    You never met Bubba, you lucky guy... Bankruptcy wasn't so tough, and the homeless shelter's food ain't bad... you miss the wife and kids, she took 'em home to mom and dad's after you lost the house... and, if you hold a job, all the money goes to Phyllis anyway... But it really was a good shoot, except for that.
    You've been reading too many fear mongering legal columns in gun magazines. I doubt very many readers here will fall for that nonsense.

    I've met Bubba probably 10,000 times. Probably so have a number of real deal guys on this forum.

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