BG gun on innocent shoot no shoot? - Page 3

BG gun on innocent shoot no shoot?

This is a discussion on BG gun on innocent shoot no shoot? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Chad Rogers You've been reading too many fear mongering legal columns in gun magazines. I doubt very many readers here will fall ...

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Thread: BG gun on innocent shoot no shoot?

  1. #31
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chad Rogers View Post
    You've been reading too many fear mongering legal columns in gun magazines. I doubt very many readers here will fall for that nonsense.

    I've met Bubba probably 10,000 times. Probably so have a number of real deal guys on this forum.
    Good ol' Bernie Goetz met Bubba AND the bankruptcy judge... He's a really lucky guy... But that's just fear mongering...

    Someone on here recently said: "Seek conflict and you will find it."
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose


  2. #32
    Senior Member Array The Old Anglo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    What'd they tell you in PCW class? Oh wait, you don't need that here any more.... just a handgun safety course, no weapons handling required.

    "Be a good witness." is the "correct" answer in Iowa... I'm not sayin that's the only answer... And I'm glad you can shoot nice tight groups at the range. But now, even if the proper head shot would bring down the BG without reflexively pulling the trigger... Even if you know what you have to hit, precisely; can you GUARANTEE the shot?

    If you want a shot, you have to get his gun on you... and know what's behind his new target (you)... once he's aiming at you, go ahead, if you feel that lucky.

    He shoots the clerk, reflexively, you have NO LIFE. You will be bankrupt. He shoots at you, but misses, and hits another bystander... a lawyer might have you served for that, too. While it IS a FACT that every bullet that comes from YOUR gun has a lawsuit attached to it... it's also quite possible that every bullet you cause to be fired (intentionally, inadvertently, whatever) may also have a lawsuit attached, with your name on it.

    Your permit doesn't make you a cop. Your permit doesn't make you a superhero. You got the permit to protect yourself and or your loved ones... You are not a member of the justice league. And, honestly here, I'm not suggesting you're thinking that way... But it needs to be made clear... Unless YOU are in danger of losing your own life, or of suffering GREAT bodily injury... it is probably best not to plan on using your weapon for anything but making those tight little groups at the range... and to be grateful for it.
    Correctly put!.

  3. #33
    Senior Member Array SFury's Avatar
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    I don't have to worry about Oakchas' comments. If this happens, and I shoot the robber and it's deemed justifiable (as it should be, but some DAs are overzealous) then in my state I have no further liability.

    What happens to the clerk is not my concern. I would hope they survive unscathed, but I'm not waiting to see if an already armed killer will let me draw after s/he has killed the clerk and shoot them when I know 100% that they are a threat.

    Common sense dictates I finish the fight. I'm just using the same surprise that they did in killing the random victim to stop them.

  4. #34
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SFury View Post
    What happens to the clerk is not my concern. I would hope they survive unscathed, but I'm not waiting to see if an already armed killer will let me draw after s/he has killed the clerk and shoot them when I know 100% that they are a threat.
    You have no liability, if, as you shoot the BG, he reflexively pulls the trigger and permanently maims the clerk? Really? Might have to move to Wisconsin, cruise the streets, looking for justifiable wet work... I'm sure there's plenty to be had... And I'm good as gold...

    Ya think?

    NOT.

    You might wanna take a close look at tort law and cases.
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

  5. #35
    Member Array carverelli's Avatar
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    grab a can of peas, and chuck it 90 degrees from the clerk. As it flys through the air, get yur sights on his medula oblongata. When the subsequent nose of the peas distracts the BG.... HEADSHOT!!!

  6. #36
    Member Array oldcurmudgeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    You have no liability, if, as you shoot the BG, he reflexively pulls the trigger and permanently maims the clerk? Really? Might have to move to Wisconsin, cruise the streets, looking for justifiable wet work... I'm sure there's plenty to be had... And I'm good as gold...

    Ya think?

    NOT.

    You might wanna take a close look at tort law and cases.

    It would be nice if you would furnish your link to any tort case or any criminal conviction where a person ended up in either civil or criminal court because his shooting a BG who had already shot someone and was threatening to shoot another, caused the BG's weapon to discharge and cause injury to another.

    I am not talking about spray and pray wild shots hitting third parties. Stick to the question as asked by the OP.

    As for Goetz, refresh my memory. I seem to recall that he was carrying illegally and on a subway.

    Is that correct?

  7. #37
    Senior Member Array SFury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    You have no liability, if, as you shoot the BG, he reflexively pulls the trigger and permanently maims the clerk? Really? Might have to move to Wisconsin, cruise the streets, looking for justifiable wet work... I'm sure there's plenty to be had... And I'm good as gold...

    Ya think?

    NOT.

    You might wanna take a close look at tort law and cases.
    You forgot the first part of my statement. Your argument and baseless statements have no worth for Wisconsin residents, and no worth for those who are visiting Wisconsin and are involved in justified shootings starting on Tuesday this week.

  8. #38
    Senior Member Array Chad Rogers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    Good ol' Bernie Goetz met Bubba AND the bankruptcy judge... He's a really lucky guy... But that's just fear mongering...

    Someone on here recently said: "Seek conflict and you will find it."
    Bernie Goetz mistake was to walk up to one of the bad guys and say to him 'You don't look too bad, here's another.' BAM!

    Mercifully, I never had to work with a timid soul masquerading as a lion.

  9. #39
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldcurmudgeo View Post
    It would be nice if you would furnish your link to any tort case or any criminal conviction where a person ended up in either civil or criminal court because his shooting a BG who had already shot someone and was threatening to shoot another, caused the BG's weapon to discharge and cause injury to another.
    Working on it.

    Quote Originally Posted by oldcurmudgeo View Post
    I am not talking about spray and pray wild shots hitting third parties. Stick to the question as asked by the OP.
    from the OP:
    ...then points gun at cashier and demands money. BG is not watching me and I am close enough to make a head shot if I was at the range ( not under stress ). If he did not have his gun pointed at cashier I would fire an aimed shot at his head and follow with multiple shots at torso. My concern is with his gun on cashier if I shoot him would he reflexively pull trigger and possibly shoot cashier? What is the physiology of this?

    Quote Originally Posted by oldcurmudgeo View Post
    As for Goetz, refresh my memory. I seem to recall that he was carrying illegally and on a subway.

    Is that correct?
    Yes, he was acquitted of all charges except the illegal carry of a weapon, it is for that he did the time. However, the civil liability caused him to file bankruptcy which did not clear the judgement for damages against him, and he claimed the bankruptcy because the cost of defense left him penniless.

    Quote Originally Posted by SFury View Post
    You forgot the first part of my statement. Your argument and baseless statements have no worth for Wisconsin residents, and no worth for those who are visiting Wisconsin and are involved in justified shootings starting on Tuesday this week.
    I didn't forget the first part of your statement. I know your carry law changes on Nov.1... care to post a link as to the changes in your laws re: Defense of others? You may not (and should not) have any liability to the estate of the BG...

    But, is that also true of the other "victim," the clerk? A good atty would be able to provide forensic experts that would bring a preponderance of evidence to prove your shot actually caused the BG to reflexively pull the trigger.
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

  10. #40
    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    oakchas, I'm not trying to call you out on this, But I see no need for you to carry with your present state of mindset. You are so hung up on what the DA and the law will do along with the civil suit that you will have lost the fight before it ever starts.

    For me the biggest and most important weapon in a gunfight or any fight is mindset and the will to win without other thought. Yes you need training on the use of the tool or tools you will use but it comes to mindset. If the thoughts and fears are more on other things than the fight there is no way you can win.

    Study and set your triggers to react before there is ever a fight so when they happen you just react and not have to worry is this the time or should I wait, is it legal to act. Will I be arrested or sued is not part of the fight at this time. You need to be alive to worry about those thing. From what you are posting and the way your looking at the situation I don't see you surviving, your mind is to full of other things to win the gunfight. Free up your mind by knowing when before it happens and then quit worrying about the aftermath, it will be what it will be. You are alive to face it.

    In this OP I see no need to worry about either of your fears (law or suit) as you have just cause to fear for your life not only that of others. Yes know your backstop BUT put the BG down as fast as possible.

    NO I am not a lawyer nor do I sleep at the Holiday Inn
    maat likes this.
    It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby. reinman45

    "Is this persons bad behavior worth me having to kill them over?" Guantes

  11. #41
    Senior Member Array Chad Rogers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldcurmudgeo View Post
    It would be nice if you would furnish your link to any tort case or any criminal conviction where a person ended up in either civil or criminal court because his shooting a BG who had already shot someone and was threatening to shoot another, caused the BG's weapon to discharge and cause injury to another.
    I think the odds of that are about the same as me getting to spend the night with Angelina Jolie.

    I see no need for you to carry with your present state of mindset. You are so hung up on what the DA and the law will do along with the civil suit that you will have lost the fight before it ever starts.
    Imagine having a partner on the street who, you know in advance, would not drop the hammer. You are basically working alone and might as well be alone because then you only have one firearm to maintain situational awareness of.

  12. #42
    Member Array maat's Avatar
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    IMO, reactions will be based on emotions, not logic during a highly stressful incident. The minute someone is shot, self-preservation will take over. As a bystander, all I see is a serious threat to my life. I'm shooting with zero reguards to the aftermath.

  13. #43
    Member Array oldcurmudgeo's Avatar
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    The difference in this case from the Minneapolis case is that in this case, the BG enters with the predetermined intention of shooting someone. He shot an innocent, according to the OP, person just to make a point.

    This is entirely different from a BG that eases up to the cashier and tells him/her to hand over the money. If this BG will shoot someone just to get everyone's attention, he will shoot anyone that gets in his way. Maybe anyone who even gives him a hard look.

    So the life of everyone in that room is in danger.

    So you certainly are in danger of you life if you are in that room and are justified in shooting.

    However, this is one of the most dangerous situations you can be in. BG has his gun at the ready, has already shot someone, etc. Whatever you do must be done exactly right or you are dead.

    Quick draw practice is not going to be enough. You will need something else going for you.

    Throwing the can of peas was a good idea except that he probably will shoot you before the can of peas hits the floor.

    Maybe better to dive behind something so you can draw under cover.

    Maybe better to be real still and hope he goes away.

    Roll of the dice in either case.

    So justification is not the question. The question is how best to stay alive.

  14. #44
    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    maat, what I'm trying to bring across here is that emotions need to be removed from the whole afair and bring it to facts. That's where the trigger points come in. What things need to be present to make you go into action, have them already in mind. Then way once they appear emotion is not needed it is just a reaction to the fact that a trigger point has been reached.

    I see reacting on emotion getting you in trouble
    It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby. reinman45

    "Is this persons bad behavior worth me having to kill them over?" Guantes

  15. #45
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    In the case of Florida, as to defense from civil suits:

    776.032 Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force.—
    (1) A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force, unless the person against whom force was used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who was acting in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person was a law enforcement officer. As used in this subsection, the term “criminal prosecution” includes arresting, detaining in custody, and charging or prosecuting the defendant.
    (2) A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use of force as described in subsection (1), but the agency may not arrest the person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful.
    (3) The court shall award reasonable attorney’s fees, court costs, compensation for loss of income, and all expenses incurred by the defendant in defense of any civil action brought by a plaintiff if the court finds that the defendant is immune from prosecution as provided in subsection (1).

    As to defense of others:
    776.012 Use of force in defense of person.—
    A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:

    (1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; or
    (2) Under those circumstances permitted pursuant to s. 776.013.

    Florida law is very "pro-self-defense" in regards to protecting any victim. If said BG has shot one person, has a gun pointed at a second, what "reasonable" person would not think he or she would be next?
    Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... Buffalo Springfield - For What It's Worth

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