BG gun on innocent shoot no shoot? - Page 4

BG gun on innocent shoot no shoot?

This is a discussion on BG gun on innocent shoot no shoot? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Bill MO maat, what I'm trying to bring across here is that emotions need to be removed from the whole afair and ...

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Thread: BG gun on innocent shoot no shoot?

  1. #46
    Member Array maat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill MO View Post
    maat, what I'm trying to bring across here is that emotions need to be removed from the whole afair and bring it to facts. That's where the trigger points come in. What things need to be present to make you go into action, have them already in mind. Then way once they appear emotion is not needed it is just a reaction to the fact that a trigger point has been reached.

    I see reacting on emotion getting you in trouble
    The information provided says to me that you have a very serious danger near you, there is a window to pull and point in order to make a surer shot. Every second wasted could be another life.

    I will agree that composure needs to be reached in order to fire.


  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    But, is that also true of the other "victim," the clerk? A good atty would be able to provide forensic experts that would bring a preponderance of evidence to prove your shot actually caused the BG to reflexively pull the trigger.
    That would have to be one hell of a forensic expert to prove that a person who has already shot someone and had his gun pointed at the other was not already in the process of pulling the trigger prior to your bullet melting his brain.

    You can play the what if game all day long....bottom line is that what you guys are discussing comes down to a personal decision. Stick to the question in the OP....what is the physiology of this scenario.
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  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    You have no liability, if, as you shoot the BG, he reflexively pulls the trigger and permanently maims the clerk? Really? Might have to move to Wisconsin, cruise the streets, looking for justifiable wet work... I'm sure there's plenty to be had... And I'm good as gold...

    Ya think?

    NOT.

    You might wanna take a close look at tort law and cases.

    Here in texas under title2, chapter 9, I am legally greenlighted to shoot the perp.

    I train FoF to close distance, draw and pointshoot perp in the head. Keep pulling the trigger until he drops like lead. I want multi rounds in his head without clerk as my backstop.

    If he reflexively shoots the clerk, I accept that. Note, perp just came in and shot one patron immediately before making his demands. His reasons are irrelevant and you will never know them at the time of the incident. All you have to go on is a shot, potentially dead customer on the ground, perp with gun to head of clerk, and I have ambush tactical capability.

    I intend to pass on drawing his fire.....yay, i drew his fire and "saved" the clerk...unfortunately, i am paralyzed....died on the store floor...my wife is a widow.....etc.


    No Thank You.


    Hes begun killing people in the store. GREENLIGHT to fight or run. Avoid the freeze.


    I will neutralize the threat as fast as I can with as little risk to myself as possible.

    I am happy to go to a grand jury here in Texas.
    The United States Constitution 1791. All Rights Reserved.

    "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men in a society, over the course of time they create for themselves a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it."
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  4. #49
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    For those who believe I would not shoot, you're misreading me entirely... But, I'm not shooting while he's got the clerk in his cross hairs.

    The physiology of the MO shot taken into account, I cannot guarantee the shot; even if, as the OP suggested, I can make really nice tight groups at that range, at the firing range.

    I'm not certain of it... but I think my first post to this thread included the thought that I will attempt to draw his muzzle in my direction... I won't wait until it's actualy pointed at me for those who voiced that concern... but there's some point at which his weapon's muzzle is pointed neither at me nor at the clerk... there is my opportunity.

    All of you with links to defense of others legal codification of immunity from civil liability, IINM, and I could easily be... That pertains to the suit from the BG (or the estate of the BG, if he doesn't survive) against you... Not to "innocent" third parties that were affected by your actions against the bad guy...

    If possible, watch the developments of the case in NY where the woman on the stoop, completely uninvolved in the melee, was hit by a ricochet... I look for her family to recoup some financial reward down the road. And in that case, it cannot be determined whether the bullet was from a police weapon or the criminal's (as yet unrecovered) weapon.

    The odds that the bullet that killed Denise Gay was from one of the policemen's guns is extremely high... eight officers shot 73 bullets, only two of which struck the BG; once in the chest, and once in the hip, leaving a 97.2% probablitity that the bullet that killed the innocent bystander belonged to a police handgun.
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

  5. #50
    Senior Member Array Dadsnugun's Avatar
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    I thought that if a person was killed during the commission of a crime, that persons death would be on the head of the criminal perpetrator. Is this not correct?
    Never pick a fight with an old man...If he's too old to fight, he'll just kill you - John Steinbeck
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  6. #51
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Oh, and just one more thing....
    and I'm done with this thread until I can find the approprate tort case.

    In just a few weeks (maybe months or years) from now, the economy really goes south, and S.S.checks won't buy a week's worth of groceries... So, everybody's having a tough time...

    The clerk is your mother... or your wife... working part time to help make ends meet, and while she supports your decision to carry, she's really not "into it" and just laughs when you suggest super secret code words that would make her drop like a sack o' taters when you utter them...

    How's the physiology of that shot lookin' now, chum?
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    For those who believe I would not shoot, you're misreading me entirely... But, I'm not shooting while he's got the clerk in his cross hairs.

    The physiology of the MO shot taken into account, I cannot guarantee the shot; even if, as the OP suggested, I can make really nice tight groups at that range, at the firing range.

    I'm not certain of it... but I think my first post to this thread included the thought that I will attempt to draw his muzzle in my direction... I won't wait until it's actualy pointed at me for those who voiced that concern... but there's some point at which his weapon's muzzle is pointed neither at me nor at the clerk... there is my opportunity.

    All of you with links to defense of others legal codification of immunity from civil liability, IINM, and I could easily be... That pertains to the suit from the BG (or the estate of the BG, if he doesn't survive) against you... Not to "innocent" third parties that were affected by your actions against the bad guy...

    If possible, watch the developments of the case in NY where the woman on the stoop, completely uninvolved in the melee, was hit by a ricochet... I look for her family to recoup some financial reward down the road. And in that case, it cannot be determined whether the bullet was from a police weapon or the criminal's (as yet unrecovered) weapon.

    The odds that the bullet that killed Denise Gay was from one of the policemen's guns is extremely high... eight officers shot 73 bullets, only two of which struck the BG; once in the chest, and once in the hip, leaving a 97.2% probablitity that the bullet that killed the innocent bystander belonged to a police handgun.
    2 for 73 at close range? I have to trust my own skills with odds like those.

  8. #53
    Member Array TravisABQ's Avatar
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    If you are so wrapped around the axle of how drawing, and shooting to save your life will ruin your life with criminal prosecution, civil liability,
    and the financial cost you may incur, I suggest that you should never carry a gun... or drive a car... or own a house.... or have a child...

    I can see the room for overthinking in previous scenarios where nobody has been hurt (yet) and the BG (so far) "appears" only interested in scoring his quick cash..... in this scenario, someone has already been shot. Where is the room for logically believing that he won't get the till and kill every
    witness in the place?

    If you do a headshot, might he shoot the clerk by reflex? Maybe.
    Might someone in the place have a fatal heart attack? Maybe.
    I'm not caring so much about the mythical butterfly effect. I'm worried about the bullets that come out of MY gun, or in MY direction.

    Lawyer induced cowardice will do you no good in the middle of a gunfight, and when someone has already been shot, it's a gunfight.

    Is it better to be shot than to be sued?

    I can recover from poor, a lot faster than I can recover from dead.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    I see your point about having the gun pointing my way... But even if it doesn't come my way... I wonder if the BG having decided to do the robbery doesn't also experience the effects of adrenaline dump (occular occlusion, tunnel vision), unless he's done this frequently. So, he may not hear you... or if he does, suffering from adrenaline effects, he might face you with the gun to compensate for tunnel vision. I think I would in his place... Your opportunity occurs as he is turning.

    And, Hiram and other LEOs, even if off duty, your response might be covered under the color of law, where Joe citizen's might not. Coming to the aid of others is fraught with financial danger. That is not to say I wouldn't do the right thing just because it is the right thing to do, but it is a consideration.

    Take the Omaha Walgreen's shooting as an example... There was some question as to whether the permit held by the CCW holder was valid where the shooting occurred. There was some legal harassment, that may have been of minor cost. The perp had an unloaded shotty. One of the CCW holder's bullets ended up in the chamber of the shotty... no one but the BG was shot... but what if?

    If I can't guarantee a MO shot... while he has the gun on the clerk, I can't take the shot... If I can get him to turn.... I have opportunity hopefully only putting myself at risk. But I'd hope to end it before any lead came my way...


    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    In Mi. you are OK to shoot, as described below, in the Self defense act of 2006;



    780.972 Use of deadly force by individual not engaged in commission of crime; conditions.
    Sec. 2. (1) An individual who has not or is not engaged in the commission of a crime at the time he or she
    uses deadly force may use deadly force against another individual anywhere he or she has the legal right to be
    with no duty to retreat if either of the following applies:
    (a) The individual honestly and reasonably believes that the use of deadly force is necessary to prevent the
    imminent death of or imminent great bodily harm to himself or herself or to another individual.
    (b) The individual honestly and reasonably believes that the use of deadly force is necessary to prevent the
    imminent sexual assault of himself or herself or of another individual.
    (2) An individual who has not or is not engaged in the commission of a crime at the time he or she uses
    force other than deadly force may use force other than deadly force against another individual anywhere he or
    she has the legal right to be with no duty to retreat if he or she honestly and reasonably believes that the use of
    that force is necessary to defend himself or herself or another individual from the imminent unlawful use of
    force by another individual.
    History: 2006, Act 309, Eff. Oct. 1, 2006.


    Naturally, if you end up inadvertently shooting a bystander, you may have some legal woes, but if all goes according to the playbook, and the only one you shoot is the BG, you are off the hook, even civilly.
    as described below;


    Civil Liability
    A person who uses force in accordance with the Act is immune from civil liability for damages caused by the use of such force (PA 314). Additionally, courts must award attorney fees and costs to an individual who has been sued for using force and the court finds that the force was in accordance with the Act (PA 312).
    Criminal Liability
    Under the Act (PA 310), no crime has been committed when a person uses force as authorized. If a prosecutor believes that the force is not justified, he or she must provide evidence that the force used was not in accordance with the Act. Such evidence must be presented at the time of warrant issuance, preliminary examination, and trial.
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  10. #55
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    If he shoots the clerk, I'm wasting him. If he doesn't shoot the clerk, I'm shooting him as soon as he turns towards me to leave.

    If he doesn't shoot the clerk, and does not even see me before he flees, I'm giving a good description to the police when they show up.

    If he shoots the clerk, I'll feel real bad the clerk got shot, but at least I'll get even for that. But the clerk getting shot won't be because of any action I took and failed to execute with precision.

    If I was right behind him, and I could make a contact shot, I might place the muzzle of my Glock at the base of his brain stem, angled up toward the top of his forehead and blow the top of his head off. But if I'm 5 or 6 feet away, I doubt I'd try a brain stem shot at any distance beyond 6 inches away. I'd likely be shaking too much.
    jace33, The Old Anglo and oakchas like this.
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    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  11. #56
    Member Array maat's Avatar
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    If I'm the clerk in this scenario, I want someone to shoot this guy. I'll take my chances with his reflexes.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by maat View Post
    If I'm the clerk in this scenario, I want someone to shoot this guy. I'll take my chances with his reflexes.
    I understand that maat, but your surviving family members may not see it that way. Sorry buddy, the clerk is on their own.

    If I were the clerk, I'd want someone to shoot them too. But I can understand peoples reluctance.

    For what it's worth, I wouldn't be a retail store clerk without being armed, whether it violated company policy or not.
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  13. #58
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    The scumbag commiting the felony should be the one responsible for any outcome or harm to individuals during situation as they are the one that caused it to take place. Now how that plays out in a Civil case if the clerk is harmed and their family decides to pursue a case against me is something I would worry about after the fact not when I had already seen one innocent person needlesly harmed.

    "The rule of felony murder is a legal doctrine in some common law jurisdictions that broadens the crime of murder in two ways. First, when an offender kills accidentally or without specific intent to kill in the course of an applicable felony, what might have been manslaughter is escalated to murder. Second, it makes any participant in such a felony criminally liable for any deaths that occur during or in furtherance of that felony'

  14. #59
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azchief View Post
    The scumbag commiting the felony should be the one responsible for any outcome or harm to individuals during situation as they are the one that caused it to take place. Now how that plays out in a Civil case if the clerk is harmed and their family decides to pursue a case against me is something I would worry about after the fact not when I had already seen one innocent person needlesly harmed.

    "The rule of felony murder is a legal doctrine in some common law jurisdictions that broadens the crime of murder in two ways. First, when an offender kills accidentally or without specific intent to kill in the course of an applicable felony, what might have been manslaughter is escalated to murder. Second, it makes any participant in such a felony criminally liable for any deaths that occur during or in furtherance of that felony'
    And, quoting from the same source (and naming it), Wikipedia:

    The reasonable person standard is by no means democratic in its scope; it is, contrary to popular conception, intentionally distinct from that of the "average person," who is not necessarily guaranteed to always be reasonable.[9] The reasonable person will weigh all of the following factors before acting:

    * the foreseeable risk of harm his actions create versus the utility of his actions;
    * the extent of the risk so created;
    * the likelihood such risk will actually cause harm to others;
    * any alternatives of lesser risk, and the costs of those alternatives.
    So, in some jurisdictions, Taking "the shot" while the BG's gun is pointed at the clerk, could end up in a charge of Criminally negligent homicide, or Reckless Homicide.

    From Us Legal:
    Reckless homicide is the killing of another person by a reckless act. In some states, involuntary manslaughter committed by use of a motor vehicle is called reckless homicide. Laws governing reckless homicide vary by jurisdiction.

    In general, "recklessly" means that a person acts recklessly with respect to circumstances surrounding the conduct or the result of the conduct when the person is aware of, but consciously disregards, a substantial and unjustifiable risk that the circumstances exist or the result will occur. The risk must be of such a nature and degree that its disregard constitutes a gross deviation from the standard of care that an ordinary person would exercise under all the circumstances as viewed from the accused person's standpoint..
    And, further; in some jurisdictions, being found innocent of the criminal charges does not exclude the possibility of a wrongful death and related civil tort suits. (Regardless of your belief in the innocence or guilt of the man; the O.J. Simpson case is an excellent example.)

    And, when the prosecutor or plaintiff's attorney brings in experts from FBI HRT, SWAT, and other trained shooters who would say that in their expert opinion, they "would not take the shot while the gun was pointed at the victim." You could be found guilty or liable or both.

    Is any of this likely to happen? About as likely as the original scenario. Once the BG has Committed to the act (actually, the second act, because he already shot one innocent) it will all be over, one way or another, in less than 5 seconds.

    To guarantee a good chance of success, you must act between the first shooting and the aiming of the gun at the clerk. Or after the aiming at the clerk (whether she is alive or dead).

    You can get the muzzle off the clerk, as I proposed, or as Hiram did, by yelling at the perp, drawing his gun off the clerk and into your direction, perhaps. And that is after the gun is aimed at the clerk, and before it is aimed at you.
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

  15. #60
    Member Array CyanLite's Avatar
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    This one is easy. BAGW.

    Be a Good Witness.

    Regardless if he shoots the clerk or not, I'm getting behind cover. If he sees me and comes after me, then I'm emptying all the mags on me.

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