BG gun on innocent shoot no shoot?

This is a discussion on BG gun on innocent shoot no shoot? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by CyanLite This one is easy. BAGW. Be a Good Witness. Regardless if he shoots the clerk or not, I'm getting behind cover. ...

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  1. #61
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CyanLite View Post
    This one is easy. BAGW.

    Be a Good Witness.

    Regardless if he shoots the clerk or not, I'm getting behind cover. If he sees me and comes after me, then I'm emptying all the mags on me.
    What if the clerk is your wife, daughter, cousin? Does it remain "easy?"
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

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  3. #62
    Distinguished Member Array Tally XD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    There's no reason a "good witness" carrying a weapon can't seek cover, and prepare to defend themselves.
    So, when do you take that shot... if you didn't see the first victim go down, and you see the gun at the head of the teller/clerk? You counting on that MO shot?
    Ahh, you would shoot even if the gun was pointed at the clerk... Bubba's just waitin' for you in the pen... You'll like him... or else.
    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    So, you would shoot if the gun was pointed at the clerk? Fine, you don't end up in prison. You killed the badguy. Great for you! Phyllis, the clerk, survived as well... she's a quadriplegic. But, thanks to you, has a straw operated power wheelchair, a live in nurse, and nice ability-friendly apartment.

    You never met Bubba, you lucky guy... Bankruptcy wasn't so tough, and the homeless shelter's food ain't bad... you miss the wife and kids, she took 'em home to mom and dad's after you lost the house... and, if you hold a job, all the money goes to Phyllis anyway... But it really was a good shoot, except for that.
    I hope that if I am ever in this situation you are also there. I will ask the BG to point his gun at you instead of the clerk.

    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    What if the clerk is your wife, daughter, cousin? Does it remain "easy?"
    Ok, and what if the clerk is your wife, or daughter or cousin or daughter of your best friend? If the BG does indeed shoot and you did nothing to stop it how would you feel?
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    I am consistently on record and will continue to be on record as opposing concealed carry.
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  4. #63
    Ex Member Array NYCrulesU's Avatar
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    Having a CCW does not make you a super hero or a LEO, thus it does not require you to involve yourself in ongoing crimes.

    Stay alert, stay alive and be a good witness.

  5. #64
    Distinguished Member Array Tally XD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYCrulesU View Post
    Having a CCW does not make you a super hero or a LEO, thus it does not require you to involve yourself in ongoing crimes.

    Stay alert, stay alive and be a good witness.
    No sir, a CCW does not require you to involve yourself but being a decent human being, with a duty to help others in need, obligates at least a few of us to do so. None of us consider ourselves cops just because we carry a gun. I wasn't a cop when I volunteered to serve in the military either. I felt a duty to protect others. Not everyone who carries a gun is an idiot. Some of us have carried and used guns in more dangerous situations than what was laid out here.

    Staying alive may mean taking some action other than hiding behind a desk.
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    I am consistently on record and will continue to be on record as opposing concealed carry.
    - Barack Obama Chicago Tribune, April 27, 2004

  6. #65
    Ex Member Array NYCrulesU's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tally XD View Post
    No sir, a CCW does not require you to involve yourself but being a decent human being, with a duty to help others in need, obligates at least a few of us to do so. None of us consider ourselves cops just because we carry a gun. I wasn't a cop when I volunteered to serve in the military either. I felt a duty to protect others. Not everyone who carries a gun is an idiot. Some of us have carried and used guns in more dangerous situations than what was laid out here.

    Staying alive may mean taking some action other than hiding behind a desk.
    I know all about serving my country and having a sworn duty. Where you are mistaken is in that I have no duty, nor do I have any obligation, to risk my life to help anyone else. Again, if you want to play hero that's your call. I won't be cowering behind a desk but I certainly won't be charging to the rescue either.

    Gun pointed at someone else does not equal immediate threat of death or bodily harm to myself or my family. Therefore I will sit back, observe and be a good witness. No Spidey suit under my clothes.


    You're sitting in the parking lot of a convenience store. You're carrying. You see a masked man, armed, enter the store. Clearly it's robbery. Do you exit your vehicle and enter the store to stop the robbery because you are armed and it's you "duty" and "obligation" to do so?

    Only if you're a fool.

    You should simply call 911 if you feel so obligated.

    Too many foolish people running around with HCP's thinking they are "sheepdogs" (the single most ridiculous word I have ever heard). As I said in previous threads, I'm not my brothers keeper nor am I responsible for anyone other than myself and my household. My HCP was acquired so that I could carry in order to protect myself and immediate family should the need arise.

    It (a HCP) is not a license to become an honorary crime fighter.

    Many need to realize this.

  7. #66
    Senior Member Array GentlemanJim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hiram25 View Post
    Hey Buddy! BANG!
    Bang, bang, bang, bang, bang.

    Reload.

    Call 911.

    Render aid to victim, then render aid to DB.

    Edit: Preserve evidence and identify witnesses.

    Additional Edit: Under the circumstances described in the OP I would have no problem shooting the BG in the back without issuing him a challenge.

    Once the bullets start flying, quick and decisive action is needed. Every second you delay enables the bad guy to consolidate control and he has already demonstrated complete lack of regard for human life when he shot the first person.

    We aren't talking about preventing a theft at this point, we are talking about stopping a murderer in the middle of executing his crime.

    What are you going to do? Wait to see who's next?

    Jim
    Last edited by GentlemanJim; November 24th, 2011 at 02:27 PM.

  8. #67
    Distinguished Member Array Tally XD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYCrulesU View Post
    I know all about serving my country and having a sworn duty. Where you are mistaken is in that I have no duty, nor do I have any obligation, to risk my life to help anyone else. Again, if you want to play hero that's your call. I won't be cowering behind a desk but I certainly won't be charging to the rescue either.
    And I thank you for your service.
    I guess that is where I don't consider it heroism. What is the difference here, helping someone who has a gun to their head, and helping someone who is trapped in a raging river of water from a hurricane? Some opt to jump in and try to help, others choose to sit on the bank and hope the person can hold out long enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by NYCrulesU View Post
    Gun pointed at someone else does not equal immediate threat of death or bodily harm to myself or my family. Therefore I will sit back, observe and be a good witness. No Spidey suit under my clothes.
    I understand your point, but, you or I may be the next target in his sights, so I personally do consider it a direct threat to my safety at the very moment he pulled his gun.


    Quote Originally Posted by NYCrulesU View Post
    You're sitting in the parking lot of a convenience store. You're carrying. You see a masked man, armed, enter the store. Clearly it's robbery. Do you exit your vehicle and enter the store to stop the robbery because you are armed and it's you "duty" and "obligation" to do so?

    Only if you're a fool.

    You should simply call 911 if you feel so obligated.
    I agree in this situation, but this one is different. In this scenario you are already out of danger and there is no way to know if the robbers will use violence. Even a police officer wouldn't charge blindly into this situation. In the original scenario, you are already there, right there right now, and in danger, right there right now. Its act, or stand by.

    Quote Originally Posted by NYCrulesU View Post
    Too many foolish people running around with HCP's thinking they are "sheepdogs" (the single most ridiculous word I have ever heard). As I said in previous threads, I'm not my brothers keeper nor am I responsible for anyone other than myself and my household. My HCP was acquired so that I could carry in order to protect myself and immediate family should the need arise.

    It (a HCP) is not a license to become an honorary crime fighter.

    Many need to realize this.
    I never considered my CWL (Concealed Weapons License) to be anything more than just that. Having a gun on my side doesn't change my thoughts on trying to act.

    I never think of myself as a cop, I never try to police anyone for anything. I let them do what it is they want to do lawlessly or not until it becomes a life or death threat against myself or someone near me. Policemen aren't protectors of life, they are enforcers of law. I think every person on this planet has at least some small humanitarian duty to help someone else in a life or death situation.
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  9. #68
    Senior Member Array Bubbiesdad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    What'd they tell you in PCW class? Oh wait, you don't need that here any more.... just a handgun safety course, no weapons handling required.

    "Be a good witness." is the "correct" answer in Iowa... I'm not sayin that's the only answer... And I'm glad you can shoot nice tight groups at the range. But now, even if the proper head shot would bring down the BG without reflexively pulling the trigger... Even if you know what you have to hit, precisely; can you GUARANTEE the shot?

    If you want a shot, you have to get his gun on you... and know what's behind his new target (you)... once he's aiming at you, go ahead, if you feel that lucky.

    He shoots the clerk, reflexively, you have NO LIFE. You will be bankrupt. He shoots at you, but misses, and hits another bystander... a lawyer might have you served for that, too. While it IS a FACT that every bullet that comes from YOUR gun has a lawsuit attached to it... it's also quite possible that every bullet you cause to be fired (intentionally, inadvertently, whatever) may also have a lawsuit attached, with your name on it.

    Your permit doesn't make you a cop. Your permit doesn't make you a superhero. You got the permit to protect yourself and or your loved ones... You are not a member of the justice league. And, honestly here, I'm not suggesting you're thinking that way... But it needs to be made clear... Unless YOU are in danger of losing your own life, or of suffering GREAT bodily injury... it is probably best not to plan on using your weapon for anything but making those tight little groups at the range... and to be grateful for it.
    So the person who was shot upon entering. Since it's not on the BG, who is it on?

    In TN, shooting to protect a third party from death or severe bodily harm is legal.
    And save "head shots" for the movies, unless the BG is wearing body armor.
    I am not going to stand idly by and watch numerous innocent people get executed.
    And yes, my cell phone will be in my left hand.
    Always remember that others may hate you but those who hate you don't win unless you hate them. And then you destroy yourself.
    Richard M Nixon
    Owning a handgun doesn't make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician.
    Jeff Cooper

  10. #69
    Senior Member Array Bubbiesdad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYCrulesU View Post
    I know all about serving my country and having a sworn duty. Where you are mistaken is in that I have no duty, nor do I have any obligation, to risk my life to help anyone else. Again, if you want to play hero that's your call. I won't be cowering behind a desk but I certainly won't be charging to the rescue either.

    Gun pointed at someone else does not equal immediate threat of death or bodily harm to myself or my family. Therefore I will sit back, observe and be a good witness. No Spidey suit under my clothes.


    You're sitting in the parking lot of a convenience store. You're carrying. You see a masked man, armed, enter the store. Clearly it's robbery. Do you exit your vehicle and enter the store to stop the robbery because you are armed and it's you "duty" and "obligation" to do so?

    Only if you're a fool.

    You should simply call 911 if you feel so obligated.

    Too many foolish people running around with HCP's thinking they are "sheepdogs" (the single most ridiculous word I have ever heard). As I said in previous threads, I'm not my brothers keeper nor am I responsible for anyone other than myself and my household. My HCP was acquired so that I could carry in order to protect myself and immediate family should the need arise.

    It (a HCP) is not a license to become an honorary crime fighter.

    Many need to realize this.
    How many people are you willing to "be a good witness" to being shot? The count is one already.
    Always remember that others may hate you but those who hate you don't win unless you hate them. And then you destroy yourself.
    Richard M Nixon
    Owning a handgun doesn't make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician.
    Jeff Cooper

  11. #70
    Senior Member Array Bubbiesdad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    For those who believe I would not shoot, you're misreading me entirely... But, I'm not shooting while he's got the clerk in his cross hairs. The physiology of the MO shot taken into account, I cannot guarantee the shot; even if, as the OP suggested, I can make really nice tight groups at that range, at the firing range.

    I'm not certain of it... but I think my first post to this thread included the thought that I will attempt to draw his muzzle in my direction... I won't wait until it's actualy pointed at me for those who voiced that concern... but there's some point at which his weapon's muzzle is pointed neither at me nor at the clerk... there is my opportunity.

    All of you with links to defense of others legal codification of immunity from civil liability, IINM, and I could easily be... That pertains to the suit from the BG (or the estate of the BG, if he doesn't survive) against you... Not to "innocent" third parties that were affected by your actions against the bad guy...

    If possible, watch the developments of the case in NY where the woman on the stoop, completely uninvolved in the melee, was hit by a ricochet... I look for her family to recoup some financial reward down the road. And in that case, it cannot be determined whether the bullet was from a police weapon or the criminal's (as yet unrecovered) weapon.

    The odds that the bullet that killed Denise Gay was from one of the policemen's guns is extremely high... eight officers shot 73 bullets, only two of which struck the BG; once in the chest, and once in the hip, leaving a 97.2% probablitity that the bullet that killed the innocent bystander belonged to a police handgun.
    So, you're going to wait for him to shoot a second victim? a third, a fourth? As long as it's not you?
    Always remember that others may hate you but those who hate you don't win unless you hate them. And then you destroy yourself.
    Richard M Nixon
    Owning a handgun doesn't make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician.
    Jeff Cooper

  12. #71
    Ex Member Array NYCrulesU's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bubbiesdad View Post
    How many people are you willing to "be a good witness" to being shot? The count is one already.
    So long as the gun isn't trained on me, as many as he wants. I have 0 obligation to save the masses. My name isn't Jesus.

  13. #72
    Senior Member Array Bubbiesdad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYCrulesU View Post
    So long as the gun isn't trained on me, as many as he wants. I have 0 obligation to save the masses. My name isn't Jesus.
    So, you're comfortable with DATD?
    Always remember that others may hate you but those who hate you don't win unless you hate them. And then you destroy yourself.
    Richard M Nixon
    Owning a handgun doesn't make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician.
    Jeff Cooper

  14. #73
    Senior Member Array GentlemanJim's Avatar
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    So long as the gun isn't trained on me, as many as he wants. I have 0 obligation to save the masses. My name isn't Jesus.
    That is unimaginably selfish.

    I wish there was a way to easily identify people with your attitude.

    It would be nice to know who to help and who to ignore.

    Jim

  15. #74
    Ex Member Array NYCrulesU's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bubbiesdad View Post
    So, you're comfortable with DATD?
    Comfortable? The word comfortable while having a gun trained on you doesn't work. If put in that situation, DATD is an option. There are always options, DATD may be the first you choose or may be a last ditch effort.

    My point is and will remain that I am not obligated to feel responsible to use my weapon to protect/save others. Too many people, who usually wouldn't so much as help a heart attack victim, suddenly feel that they now have a HCP and a handgun and for some self dillussional reasons now believe they must and will spring into action against any wrong doing that they observe. Absurd.

    I have known too many "good samaritans" who have done prison time or atleast lost everything in court...or both. Don't kid yourself by thinking that when you blow away the BG who killed an innocent shopper that every LEO/lawyer/DA/judge will pat you on the back and call you a hero.

    When I draw my weapon to stop a threat, it will he a threat directed towards me and mine. If I'm getting sued or going to prison...it will dang well be for protecting my life or the lives of my girls or wife. It WON'T be for "manning up" and trying to protect some Mr or Mrs Joe Blow.....who had every opportunity to get their own HCP, same as me.

  16. #75
    Ex Member Array NYCrulesU's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GentlemanJim View Post
    That is unimaginably selfish.

    I wish there was a way to easily identify people with your attitude.

    It would be nice to know who to help and who to ignore.

    Jim
    I'm far from selfish. I'm actually very charitable, for someone who's been dealt the blows I have in life. But that's neither here nor there.

    Giving (charity) doesn't get you dead, imprisoned, sued.

    If I wanted to be armed and be tasked with protecting/liberating people on command I would have joined the military. Oh wait, did that.

    If I wanted to be armed and tasked with protecting the general public from themselves and others for a living I would have become a LEO. Oh wait, yup did that too.

    As a private citizen I am only responsible for myself, my wife and my two children. Amazing how difficult this concept seems for some of you to grasp.

    You must he a "sheepdog" huh? Lmao.

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