BG gun on innocent shoot no shoot?

This is a discussion on BG gun on innocent shoot no shoot? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Waiting until the gunman's attention and gun is turned on you is not sound tactics. Good luck with that approach. Jim...

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Thread: BG gun on innocent shoot no shoot?

  1. #76
    Senior Member Array GentlemanJim's Avatar
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    Waiting until the gunman's attention and gun is turned on you is not sound tactics.

    Good luck with that approach.

    Jim
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  3. #77
    Senior Member Array GentlemanJim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYCrulesU View Post
    I'm far from selfish. I'm actually very charitable, for someone who's been dealt the blows I have in life. But that's neither here nor there.

    Giving (charity) doesn't get you dead, imprisoned, sued.

    If I wanted to be armed and be tasked with protecting/liberating people on command I would have joined the military. Oh wait, did that.

    If I wanted to be armed and tasked with protecting the general public from themselves and others for a living I would have become a LEO. Oh wait, yup did that too.

    As a private citizen I am only responsible for myself, my wife and my two children. Amazing how difficult this concept seems for some of you to grasp.

    You must he a "sheepdog" huh? Lmao.
    I am also prior military and leo and I don't consider myself a sheepdog. I do regard someone who walks into a store and shoots the first person they see "for effect" to be a threat to me.

    I'm not going to stand around and wait my turn.

    You can do whatever you want.

    Jim
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  4. #78
    Senior Member Array Bubbiesdad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYCrulesU View Post
    Comfortable? The word comfortable while having a gun trained on you doesn't work. If put in that situation, DATD is an option. There are always options, DATD may be the first you choose or may be a last ditch effort.

    My point is and will remain that I am not obligated to feel responsible to use my weapon to protect/save others. Too many people, who usually wouldn't so much as help a heart attack victim, suddenly feel that they now have a HCP and a handgun and for some self dillussional reasons now believe they must and will spring into action against any wrong doing that they observe. Absurd.

    I have known too many "good samaritans" who have done prison time or atleast lost everything in court...or both. Don't kid yourself by thinking that when you blow away the BG who killed an innocent shopper that every LEO/lawyer/DA/judge will pat you on the back and call you a hero.

    When I draw my weapon to stop a threat, it will he a threat directed towards me and mine. If I'm getting sued or going to prison...it will dang well be for protecting my life or the lives of my girls or wife. It WON'T be for "manning up" and trying to protect some Mr or Mrs Joe Blow.....who had every opportunity to get their own HCP, same as me.
    For you though, DATD isn't an option, it is the only course of action. If you decide to protect "yourself or yours".
    Always remember that others may hate you but those who hate you don't win unless you hate them. And then you destroy yourself.
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    Owning a handgun doesn't make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician.
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  5. #79
    Senior Member Array Bubbiesdad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    What if the clerk is your wife, daughter, cousin? Does it remain "easy?"
    For you it would, you are the one who would "be a good witness".
    Always remember that others may hate you but those who hate you don't win unless you hate them. And then you destroy yourself.
    Richard M Nixon
    Owning a handgun doesn't make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician.
    Jeff Cooper

  6. #80
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bubbiesdad View Post
    For you it would, you are the one who would "be a good witness".
    Nope, you ain't gettin' it, chum...

    I am not shooting while the gun is pointed at the clerk, period.

    And for gentlemanjim, I am not waiting for the BG's attention to be focused on me...

    There is a point between A: on the teller/clerk

    and

    B: wholly on me

    Others have called it the "Travis Solution"

    Mike1956 posted it in another thread...

    here it is:

    The Travis solution

    You have time to unholster, take aim, and then draw the BG's attention off of his target, without really startling him... before his attention (and his gun) are on you... and after his attention and his gun are off the clerk... you have your shot(s).
    It could be worse.
    "The History of our Revolution will be one continued Lye from one end to the other."
    John Adams
    "A gun is kind of like a parachute. If you need one and don't have one, you'll probably never need one again".

  7. #81
    Member Array TravisABQ's Avatar
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    If you are expecting a jacked up robber to be that slow to turn on a distraction, I suspect you will be surprised.
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  8. #82
    Senior Member Array Bubbiesdad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    Nope, you ain't gettin' it, chum...

    I am not shooting while the gun is pointed at the clerk, period.

    And for gentlemanjim, I am not waiting for the BG's attention to be focused on me...

    There is a point between A: on the teller/clerk

    and

    B: wholly on me

    Others have called it the "Travis Solution"

    Mike1956 posted it in another thread...

    here it is:

    The Travis solution

    You have time to unholster, take aim, and then draw the BG's attention off of his target, without really startling him... before his attention (and his gun) are on you... and after his attention and his gun are off the clerk... you have your shot(s).
    So, you will wait for him to execute the clerk. He's already shot one, so you know he will most likely shoot the clerk, no matter what your actioins are. You are the one not getting it.
    Basing your strategy on a movie is beyond stupid.
    Always remember that others may hate you but those who hate you don't win unless you hate them. And then you destroy yourself.
    Richard M Nixon
    Owning a handgun doesn't make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician.
    Jeff Cooper

  9. #83
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TravisABQ View Post
    If you are expecting a jacked up robber to be that slow to turn on a distraction, I suspect you will be surprised.
    Based on the OP:

    BG is not watching me and I am close enough to make a head shot if I was at the range ( not under stress ). If he did not have his gun pointed at cashier I would fire an aimed shot at his head and follow with multiple shots at torso. My concern is with his gun on cashier if I shoot him would he reflexively pull trigger and possibly shoot cashier? What is the physiology of this? Would a head shot make him go limp or would he tense and potentially pull trigger? What would you do?
    Does not see me... Assumed that BG is, after the first shot, not only "jacked up" on external chemicals, but also under the influence of adrenaline. As a result of his first shot, unless he came in with ears on, is already suffering from auditory exclusion, and some of the tunnel vision effects of the adrenaline.

    Cannot make the shot while the gun is on the clerk... you cannot guarantee a MO totally incapacitating shot... how do you get the BG and the muzzle of his gun off the clerk? One of the first responses to the post was... "hey buddy, bang!"

    So, according to the OP, I have not been seen, probably not been heard (my assumption), and I only have to get the muzzle of his gun off the clerk incrementally... as soon as that occurs, based on the OP's "I can do this at the range..." I also assume he has time to aim the gun as he would at the range. Once the muzzle of the BGs gun is off the clerk, bang... I've only broken it down incrementally time wise.... it IS essentially "hey buddy, bang."


    Quote Originally Posted by Bubbiesdad View Post
    So, you will wait for him to execute the clerk. He's already shot one, so you know he will most likely shoot the clerk, no matter what your actioins are. You are the one not getting it.
    Basing your strategy on a movie is beyond stupid.
    Not basing the strategy on the movie, the movie was brought to mind later by a subsequent post, but illustrates the concept extremely well.... The target for a MO shot is small, it is invisible, and it is moving.... without guaranteed success, too risky.... so draw the attention of the BG off his current target, even a little bit, take your aimed shot and follow ups as needed.

    Read take your shot?
    It could be worse.
    "The History of our Revolution will be one continued Lye from one end to the other."
    John Adams
    "A gun is kind of like a parachute. If you need one and don't have one, you'll probably never need one again".

  10. #84
    Senior Member Array Bubbiesdad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    Based on the OP:



    Does not see me... Assumed that BG is, after the first shot, not only "jacked up" on external chemicals, but also under the influence of adrenaline. As a result of his first shot, unless he came in with ears on, is already suffering from auditory exclusion, and some of the tunnel vision effects of the adrenaline.

    Cannot make the shot while the gun is on the clerk... you cannot guarantee a MO totally incapacitating shot... how do you get the BG and the muzzle of his gun off the clerk? One of the first responses to the post was... "hey buddy, bang!"

    So, according to the OP, I have not been seen, probably not been heard (my assumption), and I only have to get the muzzle of his gun off the clerk incrementally... as soon as that occurs, based on the OP's "I can do this at the range..." I also assume he has time to aim the gun as he would at the range. Once the muzzle of the BGs gun is off the clerk, bang... I've only broken it down incrementally time wise.... it IS essentially "hey buddy, bang."




    Not basing the strategy on the movie, the movie was brought to mind later by a subsequent post, but illustrates the concept extremely well.... The target for a MO shot is small, it is invisible, and it is moving.... without guaranteed success, too risky.... so draw the attention of the BG off his current target, even a little bit, take your aimed shot and follow ups as needed.

    Read take your shot?
    You are still giving the bad guy ample opportunity to kill the clerk.

    "Hey buddy" BANG.
    That bang is him shooting the clerk. Your fault since you disturbed him while he was pointing his gun at the clerk.
    Always remember that others may hate you but those who hate you don't win unless you hate them. And then you destroy yourself.
    Richard M Nixon
    Owning a handgun doesn't make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician.
    Jeff Cooper

  11. #85
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bubbiesdad View Post
    You are still giving the bad guy ample opportunity to kill the clerk.

    "Hey buddy" BANG.
    That bang is him shooting the clerk. Your fault since you disturbed him while he was pointing his gun at the clerk.
    So, you're going for the MO shot, while the gun is pointed at the clerk? The BangBang is your shot and his, his is killing or maiming the clerk, what did yours prevent? or do?

    Again --- read --- this link : HERE

    Now tell me that you can guarantee an incapacitating shot... when professionals wouldn't likely take it (even with a rifle shot that would gelatinize the entire brain, including the MO)... without the BG's gun off the clerk...

    The best opportunity of course, is after the first shooting of the random innocent, and before the clerk... but we aren't given that opportunity in the OP.
    It could be worse.
    "The History of our Revolution will be one continued Lye from one end to the other."
    John Adams
    "A gun is kind of like a parachute. If you need one and don't have one, you'll probably never need one again".

  12. #86
    Senior Member Array Chad Rogers's Avatar
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    This estrogen laced thread is still going?

  13. #87
    Senior Member Array Bubbiesdad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    So, you're going for the MO shot, while the gun is pointed at the clerk? The BangBang is your shot and his, his is killing or maiming the clerk, what did yours prevent? or do?

    Again --- read --- this link : HERE

    Now tell me that you can guarantee an incapacitating shot... when professionals wouldn't likely take it (even with a rifle shot that would gelatinize the entire brain, including the MO)... without the BG's gun off the clerk...

    The best opportunity of course, is after the first shooting of the random innocent, and before the clerk... but we aren't given that opportunity in the OP.
    Once again, read it SLOWLLY this time.


    "Hey buddy" BANG.
    That bang is him shooting the clerk. Your fault since you disturbed him while he was pointing his gun at the clerk

    There is no bang for my shot, as you are the one yelling at the bad guy, not me.

    I have never mention a perfectly incapacitating shot.

    And your MO shot, even with no distractions is a joke.
    Always remember that others may hate you but those who hate you don't win unless you hate them. And then you destroy yourself.
    Richard M Nixon
    Owning a handgun doesn't make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician.
    Jeff Cooper

  14. #88
    Senior Member Array Bubbiesdad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    Based on the OP:



    Does not see me... Assumed that BG is, after the first shot, not only "jacked up" on external chemicals, but also under the influence of adrenaline. As a result of his first shot, unless he came in with ears on, is already suffering from auditory exclusion, and some of the tunnel vision effects of the adrenaline.

    Cannot make the shot while the gun is on the clerk... you cannot guarantee a MO totally incapacitating shot... how do you get the BG and the muzzle of his gun off the clerk? One of the first responses to the post was... "hey buddy, bang!"

    So, according to the OP, I have not been seen, probably not been heard (my assumption), and I only have to get the muzzle of his gun off the clerk incrementally... as soon as that occurs, based on the OP's "I can do this at the range..." I also assume he has time to aim the gun as he would at the range. Once the muzzle of the BGs gun is off the clerk, bang... I've only broken it down incrementally time wise.... it IS essentially "hey buddy, bang."




    Not basing the strategy on the movie, the movie was brought to mind later by a subsequent post, but illustrates the concept extremely well.... The target for a MO shot is small, it is invisible, and it is moving.... without guaranteed success, too risky.... so draw the attention of the BG off his current target, even a little bit, take your aimed shot and follow ups as needed.

    Read take your shot?
    So tell us, how do YOU aim at a moving invisible target?
    Always remember that others may hate you but those who hate you don't win unless you hate them. And then you destroy yourself.
    Richard M Nixon
    Owning a handgun doesn't make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician.
    Jeff Cooper

  15. #89
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    BD, you really do have problems with comprehension, don't you?

    Let me 'splain it to you...

    I did not say that one should be a good witness. I said that is the "correct" answer in Iowa, based on the no longer required permit to carry courses.
    I did say "if you want a shot you have to get his gun on you."
    After a retired LEO answered the scenario with Hey buddy BANG, I clarified my meaning that you have to get the BG's gun off of the clerk (not actually ON you) but I did not make that clear.
    Another retired LEO stated that he agreed with the first... only more derrogatory in order to get BG's FULL attention.

    Now, going to the OP's request for the physiology of the shot... one poster linked to the wikipedia article on the Medulla Oblongata... In fact he posted while I was writing my first response.

    After a few posts the OP chimed in with what he meant by the "physiology of the shot"
    more of the physiology of what could happen
    There are concerns as to what can happen after the shot, (legal, civil and otherwise) and I referenced the Omaha Walgreens shooting...
    I also said:
    If I can't guarantee a MO shot... (because I cannot guarantee any shot at a moving invisible target) while he has the gun on the clerk, I can't take the shot... If I can get him to turn.... I have opportunity hopefully only putting myself at risk. But I'd hope to end it before any lead came my way...
    (red added for this post.)

    I CANNOT GUARANTEE AN MO SHOT, never said I could... If I could, I would shoot him with his gun on the clerk... since I cannot, I choose to attempt to draw his attention to me.. and fire before he is "on me" and after he is off the clerk.

    While you, on the other hand, have said no where in this thread what you would do... you would probably just yap yap yap and tell whoever did anything that they were wrong.... But go ahead and knock yourself out until your fingers are bloody stumps...

    And as to another poster, your comments are not backed up by some "real deal guys" here who are retired, who have met and dealt with more Bubbas than you have met in your life.
    It could be worse.
    "The History of our Revolution will be one continued Lye from one end to the other."
    John Adams
    "A gun is kind of like a parachute. If you need one and don't have one, you'll probably never need one again".

  16. #90
    Senior Member Array GentlemanJim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    Cannot make the shot while the gun is on the clerk... you cannot guarantee a MO totally incapacitating shot... how do you get the BG and the muzzle of his gun off the clerk? One of the first responses to the post was... "hey buddy, bang!"
    Any course of action or inaction carries risk.

    Life doesn't come with guarantee's and the outcome of any armed confrontation might not be what you hoped, but the goal should be to end it as quickly as possible with as few rounds fired as possible.

    I have no moral, ethical, or legal restrictions against using deadly force in the situation presented by the OP. The use of deadly force wasn't initiated by me, it was initiated by the BG when he shot the first person.

    The only thing wrong with the "hey buddy, bang" response is the "hey buddy" part.

    The proper response being "bang."

    Jim
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