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BG gun on innocent shoot no shoot?

9K views 99 replies 31 participants last post by  Floyd D. Barber 
#1 ·
In thinking about different scenarios and what I would do one that troubles me is this. You are in a store BG enters and shoots someone for effect then points gun at cashier and demands money. BG is not watching me and I am close enough to make a head shot if I was at the range ( not under stress ). If he did not have his gun pointed at cashier I would fire an aimed shot at his head and follow with multiple shots at torso. My concern is with his gun on cashier if I shoot him would he reflexively pull trigger and possibly shoot cashier? What is the physiology of this? Would a head shot make him go limp or would he tense and potentially pull trigger? What would you do?
 
#3 ·
What'd they tell you in PCW class? Oh wait, you don't need that here any more.... just a handgun safety course, no weapons handling required.

"Be a good witness." is the "correct" answer in Iowa... I'm not sayin that's the only answer... And I'm glad you can shoot nice tight groups at the range. But now, even if the proper head shot would bring down the BG without reflexively pulling the trigger... Even if you know what you have to hit, precisely; can you GUARANTEE the shot?

If you want a shot, you have to get his gun on you... and know what's behind his new target (you)... once he's aiming at you, go ahead, if you feel that lucky.

He shoots the clerk, reflexively, you have NO LIFE. You will be bankrupt. He shoots at you, but misses, and hits another bystander... a lawyer might have you served for that, too. While it IS a FACT that every bullet that comes from YOUR gun has a lawsuit attached to it... it's also quite possible that every bullet you cause to be fired (intentionally, inadvertently, whatever) may also have a lawsuit attached, with your name on it.

Your permit doesn't make you a cop. Your permit doesn't make you a superhero. You got the permit to protect yourself and or your loved ones... You are not a member of the justice league. And, honestly here, I'm not suggesting you're thinking that way... But it needs to be made clear... Unless YOU are in danger of losing your own life, or of suffering GREAT bodily injury... it is probably best not to plan on using your weapon for anything but making those tight little groups at the range... and to be grateful for it.
 
#5 ·
That's what I meant (and honestly, what I might try) when I said
If you want a shot, you have to get his gun on you... and know what's behind his new target (you)... once he's aiming at you, go ahead, if you feel that lucky.

Of course, if it's some hopped up crack head, he might pull the trigger before he turns, anyway; just 'cause you startled him... and you ain't saved anybody's life if that happens, maybe.

Since he came in shooting, he's now an active shooter/active killer... maybe the best course of action is to shoot him anyway... he might shoot someone on his way out, or the clerk "becasue she wasn't quick enough." You gotta do what you gotta do... I'd at least try to get him to turn towards me.
 
#9 ·
Well this is where your firearms knowledge may come into play.

What kind of handgun is he using? A DA revolver, uncocked, takes a lot of pressure to pull the trigger vs one with the hammer cocked to a single action mode same with a DA auto.

A shot to the Medulla Oblongata will generally result in a zero percentage reaction on the part of the suspect but you have to know how to hit that spot from whatever angle you are at and also have enough gun to get there. As an example full frontal would be the "T" zone which is an imaginary line roughly two inches wide across the eyes and going down the center of the face to the upper lip.

My point of aim for a full frontal view with a rifle or pistol would be the tip of the nose. Although you will have some interference from the hard palete if you are a little low the sinus cavity is vacate so there would be little or no disruption from hard objects of course with a rifle round this is not as big of a concern as with a pistol. You can also fire into the upper lip and use the teeth, debris from the hard palate and the round itself to increase fragmentation effect which in theory would increase the odds of hitting the right spot.
From the side point of aim would be the base of the ear and from the rear the base of the skull at the hairline, you have to judge this for yourself as hairlines differ. In most cases any shot that cuts the spinal cord or causes substantial trauma to it will reduce the risk of a sympathic reaction.

Generally a headshot from a significant caliber will result in such great trauma the person shot will go down but as stated unless you hit the MO, where the spinal cord connects to the brain, you still may get a sympathetic reaction to the shot.
 
#11 ·
My original posted scenario was mostly to learn more of the physiology of what could happen. Probably if someone burst into store I was in and shot someone I would be heading for cover as quick as I could rather than staying close enough to BG to take a headshot.

This may take this thread off coarse but I thought that the law would allow me to use my weapon to stop someone who had committed a felony and who any reasonable person would think was a continuing threat to the safety of others. I don't plan to act like a leo and I don't expect to ever need to use my gun. I have chosen to carry so I am prepared for the unexpected. I guess we would all do what we thought we needed to in any given situation and hope that it is the right choice.
 
#12 ·
Geometries of fire would be a concern too. I take it from your scenario you are behind the BG, you certainly don't want to give him a CNS shot, and in the process also give on to the cashier.
 
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#14 ·
If I found myself in the position you have me I would still shot for the head more than one time but would go down low so I was shooting up.
 
#13 ·
When I read the OP my vision was, I am to the rear and side about 5 yds, I just stepped out of a side aisle into the main one running to the check-out as he comes in shooting one and threating another. His focus is on the clerk, I would shoot and at the same time I would move to close distance shooting till he no longer stood. Yes with a head shot BG will or should drop fast but I'm betting I can get up to 3 shots in his head before he falls.

The fact he has already shot someone makes me in fear of my own life.
 
#18 ·
It's a good question, one I have thought about.

Sure, circumstances may dictate just be a good witness, but what if it's the same scenario we have seen many times where some crazy guy ultimately kills everyone in the pharmacy/hair salon/IHOP - when and how to you take this shot and what is likely to be the BGs reflex - cause if I'm next no way I'm not shooting.
 
#20 ·
For those who are having trouble with "do I have the right to help someone else in this situation"?

For me he has already shot one person just for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. QUESTION,, Will you be next? I'm shooting him because I feared for my life not someone elses. Yes he has the gun on the clerk but you could be next to die not the clerk. Once he sees you he don't need anything from you SO..

The way I see it you had to shoot him before he shot you. That would be what I told the LEO once they got there. He had already shot one thought I would be next.
 
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#24 ·
Ahh, you would shoot even if the gun was pointed at the clerk... Bubba's just waitin' for you in the pen... You'll like him... or else.
Nervous Nellieism at its finest.

So, when do you take that shot... if you didn't see the first victim go down, and you see the gun at the head of the teller/clerk? You counting on that MO shot?
Actually reading the original post, and making the logical inferences from it, is very informative.
 
#27 ·
Nervous Nellieism at its finest.
So, you would shoot if the gun was pointed at the clerk? Fine, you don't end up in prison. You killed the badguy. Great for you! Phyllis, the clerk, survived as well... she's a quadriplegic. But, thanks to you, has a straw operated power wheelchair, a live in nurse, and nice ability-friendly apartment.

You never met Bubba, you lucky guy... Bankruptcy wasn't so tough, and the homeless shelter's food ain't bad... you miss the wife and kids, she took 'em home to mom and dad's after you lost the house... and, if you hold a job, all the money goes to Phyllis anyway... But it really was a good shoot, except for that.
 
#25 ·
For me if I'm to afraid to use the gun I carry then I have to ask the question Why do I carry? Some DA may not like the idea I used it and send or at least try to send me to jail.

If I am in fear for my life I use my gun, let everything else sort its self out later. I at least want to be sucking air when it's over.

The big thing here is are you in fear for yourself or someone else and can you articulate that to others.
 
#26 ·
For me if I'm to afraid to use the gun I carry then I have to ask the question Why do I carry? Some DA may not like the idea I used it and send or at least try to send me to jail.
No DA is going to send you to jail for shooting somebody who has 1) already shot somebody, and 2) is now pointing a gun at a store employee's head. That's just manufactured "fearism."
 
#28 ·
You didn't make BG do anything; he's already shot one and has the gun in another's face. What makes you think he's not pulling the trigger regardless?

What you do depends on your state laws and/or your moral character.
 
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#29 ·
You didn't make BG do anything; he's already shot one and has the gun in another's face. What makes you think he's not pulling the trigger regardless?
Absolutely true... BTW, Whatever happened to Bernhard Goetz?

All it takes is a lawyer willing to take the case.

What you do depends on your state laws and/or your moral character.
In the end, the state's laws mean nothing... it's dependent on your moral character.

I am in no way saying I would not shoot. I would truly make an attempt to stop the threat with no risk to anyone but myself... that's not always possible...

All of the rest though, really does enter into the equation. In the hands of a zealous prosecutor, you might go to jail for the death or injury of the clerk. In the hands of a zealous attorney, you could also end up bankrupt, just defending yourself from civil litigation. Especially where the rules of reasonable doubt do not come into play.
 
#33 ·
I don't have to worry about Oakchas' comments. If this happens, and I shoot the robber and it's deemed justifiable (as it should be, but some DAs are overzealous) then in my state I have no further liability.

What happens to the clerk is not my concern. I would hope they survive unscathed, but I'm not waiting to see if an already armed killer will let me draw after s/he has killed the clerk and shoot them when I know 100% that they are a threat.

Common sense dictates I finish the fight. I'm just using the same surprise that they did in killing the random victim to stop them.
 
#34 ·
What happens to the clerk is not my concern. I would hope they survive unscathed, but I'm not waiting to see if an already armed killer will let me draw after s/he has killed the clerk and shoot them when I know 100% that they are a threat.
You have no liability, if, as you shoot the BG, he reflexively pulls the trigger and permanently maims the clerk? Really? Might have to move to Wisconsin, cruise the streets, looking for justifiable wet work... I'm sure there's plenty to be had... And I'm good as gold...

Ya think?

NOT.

You might wanna take a close look at tort law and cases.
 
#40 ·
oakchas, I'm not trying to call you out on this, But I see no need for you to carry with your present state of mindset. You are so hung up on what the DA and the law will do along with the civil suit that you will have lost the fight before it ever starts.

For me the biggest and most important weapon in a gunfight or any fight is mindset and the will to win without other thought. Yes you need training on the use of the tool or tools you will use but it comes to mindset. If the thoughts and fears are more on other things than the fight there is no way you can win.

Study and set your triggers to react before there is ever a fight so when they happen you just react and not have to worry is this the time or should I wait, is it legal to act. Will I be arrested or sued is not part of the fight at this time. You need to be alive to worry about those thing. From what you are posting and the way your looking at the situation I don't see you surviving, your mind is to full of other things to win the gunfight. Free up your mind by knowing when before it happens and then quit worrying about the aftermath, it will be what it will be. You are alive to face it.

In this OP I see no need to worry about either of your fears (law or suit) as you have just cause to fear for your life not only that of others. Yes know your backstop BUT put the BG down as fast as possible.

NO I am not a lawyer nor do I sleep at the Holiday Inn
 
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#42 ·
IMO, reactions will be based on emotions, not logic during a highly stressful incident. The minute someone is shot, self-preservation will take over. As a bystander, all I see is a serious threat to my life. I'm shooting with zero reguards to the aftermath.
 
#43 ·
The difference in this case from the Minneapolis case is that in this case, the BG enters with the predetermined intention of shooting someone. He shot an innocent, according to the OP, person just to make a point.

This is entirely different from a BG that eases up to the cashier and tells him/her to hand over the money. If this BG will shoot someone just to get everyone's attention, he will shoot anyone that gets in his way. Maybe anyone who even gives him a hard look.

So the life of everyone in that room is in danger.

So you certainly are in danger of you life if you are in that room and are justified in shooting.

However, this is one of the most dangerous situations you can be in. BG has his gun at the ready, has already shot someone, etc. Whatever you do must be done exactly right or you are dead.

Quick draw practice is not going to be enough. You will need something else going for you.

Throwing the can of peas was a good idea except that he probably will shoot you before the can of peas hits the floor.

Maybe better to dive behind something so you can draw under cover.

Maybe better to be real still and hope he goes away.

Roll of the dice in either case.

So justification is not the question. The question is how best to stay alive.
 
#44 ·
maat, what I'm trying to bring across here is that emotions need to be removed from the whole afair and bring it to facts. That's where the trigger points come in. What things need to be present to make you go into action, have them already in mind. Then way once they appear emotion is not needed it is just a reaction to the fact that a trigger point has been reached.

I see reacting on emotion getting you in trouble
 
#46 ·
The information provided says to me that you have a very serious danger near you, there is a window to pull and point in order to make a surer shot. Every second wasted could be another life.

I will agree that composure needs to be reached in order to fire.
 
#45 ·
In the case of Florida, as to defense from civil suits:

776.032 Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force.—
(1) A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force, unless the person against whom force was used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who was acting in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person was a law enforcement officer. As used in this subsection, the term “criminal prosecution” includes arresting, detaining in custody, and charging or prosecuting the defendant.
(2) A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use of force as described in subsection (1), but the agency may not arrest the person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful.
(3) The court shall award reasonable attorney’s fees, court costs, compensation for loss of income, and all expenses incurred by the defendant in defense of any civil action brought by a plaintiff if the court finds that the defendant is immune from prosecution as provided in subsection (1).

As to defense of others:
776.012 Use of force in defense of person.—
A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:

(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; or
(2) Under those circumstances permitted pursuant to s. 776.013.

Florida law is very "pro-self-defense" in regards to protecting any victim. If said BG has shot one person, has a gun pointed at a second, what "reasonable" person would not think he or she would be next?
 
#49 ·
For those who believe I would not shoot, you're misreading me entirely... But, I'm not shooting while he's got the clerk in his cross hairs.

The physiology of the MO shot taken into account, I cannot guarantee the shot; even if, as the OP suggested, I can make really nice tight groups at that range, at the firing range.

I'm not certain of it... but I think my first post to this thread included the thought that I will attempt to draw his muzzle in my direction... I won't wait until it's actualy pointed at me for those who voiced that concern... but there's some point at which his weapon's muzzle is pointed neither at me nor at the clerk... there is my opportunity.

All of you with links to defense of others legal codification of immunity from civil liability, IINM, and I could easily be... That pertains to the suit from the BG (or the estate of the BG, if he doesn't survive) against you... Not to "innocent" third parties that were affected by your actions against the bad guy...

If possible, watch the developments of the case in NY where the woman on the stoop, completely uninvolved in the melee, was hit by a ricochet... I look for her family to recoup some financial reward down the road. And in that case, it cannot be determined whether the bullet was from a police weapon or the criminal's (as yet unrecovered) weapon.

The odds that the bullet that killed Denise Gay was from one of the policemen's guns is extremely high... eight officers shot 73 bullets, only two of which struck the BG; once in the chest, and once in the hip, leaving a 97.2% probablitity that the bullet that killed the innocent bystander belonged to a police handgun.
 
#50 ·
I thought that if a person was killed during the commission of a crime, that persons death would be on the head of the criminal perpetrator. Is this not correct?
 
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