BG gun on innocent shoot no shoot?

BG gun on innocent shoot no shoot?

This is a discussion on BG gun on innocent shoot no shoot? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; In thinking about different scenarios and what I would do one that troubles me is this. You are in a store BG enters and shoots ...

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  1. #1
    Member Array Ducmonster's Avatar
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    BG gun on innocent shoot no shoot?

    In thinking about different scenarios and what I would do one that troubles me is this. You are in a store BG enters and shoots someone for effect then points gun at cashier and demands money. BG is not watching me and I am close enough to make a head shot if I was at the range ( not under stress ). If he did not have his gun pointed at cashier I would fire an aimed shot at his head and follow with multiple shots at torso. My concern is with his gun on cashier if I shoot him would he reflexively pull trigger and possibly shoot cashier? What is the physiology of this? Would a head shot make him go limp or would he tense and potentially pull trigger? What would you do?


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  3. #3
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    What'd they tell you in PCW class? Oh wait, you don't need that here any more.... just a handgun safety course, no weapons handling required.

    "Be a good witness." is the "correct" answer in Iowa... I'm not sayin that's the only answer... And I'm glad you can shoot nice tight groups at the range. But now, even if the proper head shot would bring down the BG without reflexively pulling the trigger... Even if you know what you have to hit, precisely; can you GUARANTEE the shot?

    If you want a shot, you have to get his gun on you... and know what's behind his new target (you)... once he's aiming at you, go ahead, if you feel that lucky.

    He shoots the clerk, reflexively, you have NO LIFE. You will be bankrupt. He shoots at you, but misses, and hits another bystander... a lawyer might have you served for that, too. While it IS a FACT that every bullet that comes from YOUR gun has a lawsuit attached to it... it's also quite possible that every bullet you cause to be fired (intentionally, inadvertently, whatever) may also have a lawsuit attached, with your name on it.

    Your permit doesn't make you a cop. Your permit doesn't make you a superhero. You got the permit to protect yourself and or your loved ones... You are not a member of the justice league. And, honestly here, I'm not suggesting you're thinking that way... But it needs to be made clear... Unless YOU are in danger of losing your own life, or of suffering GREAT bodily injury... it is probably best not to plan on using your weapon for anything but making those tight little groups at the range... and to be grateful for it.
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

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    VIP Member Array Hiram25's Avatar
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    Hey Buddy! BANG!
    paullie and Bark'n like this.
    Hiram25
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  5. #5
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hiram25 View Post
    Hey Buddy! BANG!
    That's what I meant (and honestly, what I might try) when I said
    If you want a shot, you have to get his gun on you... and know what's behind his new target (you)... once he's aiming at you, go ahead, if you feel that lucky.

    Of course, if it's some hopped up crack head, he might pull the trigger before he turns, anyway; just 'cause you startled him... and you ain't saved anybody's life if that happens, maybe.

    Since he came in shooting, he's now an active shooter/active killer... maybe the best course of action is to shoot him anyway... he might shoot someone on his way out, or the clerk "becasue she wasn't quick enough." You gotta do what you gotta do... I'd at least try to get him to turn towards me.
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

  6. #6
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    I agree with Hiram, only what I would say, while not being much longer, would be considerably more derogatory and insulting, to insure gaining his full attention.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

  7. #7
    VIP Member Array Hiram25's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    That's what I meant (and honestly, what I might try) when I said


    Of course, if it's some hopped up crack head, he might pull the trigger before he turns, anyway; just 'cause you startled him... and you ain't saved anybody's life if that happens, maybe.

    Since he came in shooting, he's now an active shooter/active killer... maybe the best course of action is to shoot him anyway... he might shoot someone on his way out, or the clerk "becasue she wasn't quick enough." You gotta do what you gotta do... I'd at least try to get him to turn towards me.
    The last think I want is his gun on me! I only want it to click in his mind that he's got a possible problem and while he's thinking about that, his mind is off the clerk, he gets shot before he can register what he should do next.
    Bark'n likes this.
    Hiram25
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    What'd they tell you in PCW class? Oh wait, you don't need that here any more.... just a handgun safety course, no weapons handling required.

    "Be a good witness." is the "correct" answer in Iowa... I'm not sayin that's the only answer... And I'm glad you can shoot nice tight groups at the range. But now, even if the proper head shot would bring down the BG without reflexively pulling the trigger... Even if you know what you have to hit, precisely; can you GUARANTEE the shot?

    If you want a shot, you have to get his gun on you... and know what's behind his new target (you)... once he's aiming at you, go ahead, if you feel that lucky.

    He shoots the clerk, reflexively, you have NO LIFE. You will be bankrupt. He shoots at you, but misses, and hits another bystander... a lawyer might have you served for that, too. While it IS a FACT that every bullet that comes from YOUR gun has a lawsuit attached to it... it's also quite possible that every bullet you cause to be fired (intentionally, inadvertently, whatever) may also have a lawsuit attached, with your name on it.

    Your permit doesn't make you a cop. Your permit doesn't make you a superhero. You got the permit to protect yourself and or your loved ones... You are not a member of the justice league. And, honestly here, I'm not suggesting you're thinking that way... But it needs to be made clear... Unless YOU are in danger of losing your own life, or of suffering GREAT bodily injury... it is probably best not to plan on using your weapon for anything but making those tight little groups at the range... and to be grateful for it.
    Yes, if you don't have total confidence your ability, don't take the shot.

  9. #9
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    Well this is where your firearms knowledge may come into play.

    What kind of handgun is he using? A DA revolver, uncocked, takes a lot of pressure to pull the trigger vs one with the hammer cocked to a single action mode same with a DA auto.

    A shot to the Medulla Oblongata will generally result in a zero percentage reaction on the part of the suspect but you have to know how to hit that spot from whatever angle you are at and also have enough gun to get there. As an example full frontal would be the "T" zone which is an imaginary line roughly two inches wide across the eyes and going down the center of the face to the upper lip.

    My point of aim for a full frontal view with a rifle or pistol would be the tip of the nose. Although you will have some interference from the hard palete if you are a little low the sinus cavity is vacate so there would be little or no disruption from hard objects of course with a rifle round this is not as big of a concern as with a pistol. You can also fire into the upper lip and use the teeth, debris from the hard palate and the round itself to increase fragmentation effect which in theory would increase the odds of hitting the right spot.
    From the side point of aim would be the base of the ear and from the rear the base of the skull at the hairline, you have to judge this for yourself as hairlines differ. In most cases any shot that cuts the spinal cord or causes substantial trauma to it will reduce the risk of a sympathic reaction.

    Generally a headshot from a significant caliber will result in such great trauma the person shot will go down but as stated unless you hit the MO, where the spinal cord connects to the brain, you still may get a sympathetic reaction to the shot.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  10. #10
    Member Array tomtsr's Avatar
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    "Bang, hey buddy." No need to invite him to a gunfight. Nothing requires me to say a word since he already shot someone.
    TVJ and Bubbiesdad like this.
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  11. #11
    Member Array Ducmonster's Avatar
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    My original posted scenario was mostly to learn more of the physiology of what could happen. Probably if someone burst into store I was in and shot someone I would be heading for cover as quick as I could rather than staying close enough to BG to take a headshot.

    This may take this thread off coarse but I thought that the law would allow me to use my weapon to stop someone who had committed a felony and who any reasonable person would think was a continuing threat to the safety of others. I don't plan to act like a leo and I don't expect to ever need to use my gun. I have chosen to carry so I am prepared for the unexpected. I guess we would all do what we thought we needed to in any given situation and hope that it is the right choice.

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    Geometries of fire would be a concern too. I take it from your scenario you are behind the BG, you certainly don't want to give him a CNS shot, and in the process also give on to the cashier.
    TVJ likes this.
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  13. #13
    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    When I read the OP my vision was, I am to the rear and side about 5 yds, I just stepped out of a side aisle into the main one running to the check-out as he comes in shooting one and threating another. His focus is on the clerk, I would shoot and at the same time I would move to close distance shooting till he no longer stood. Yes with a head shot BG will or should drop fast but I'm betting I can get up to 3 shots in his head before he falls.

    The fact he has already shot someone makes me in fear of my own life.
    It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby. reinman45

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  14. #14
    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by buckeye .45 View Post
    Geometries of fire would be a concern too. I take it from your scenario you are behind the BG, you certainly don't want to give him a CNS shot, and in the process also give on to the cashier.
    If I found myself in the position you have me I would still shot for the head more than one time but would go down low so I was shooting up.
    It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby. reinman45

    "Is this persons bad behavior worth me having to kill them over?" Guantes

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill MO View Post
    If I found myself in the position you have me I would still shot for the head more than one time but would go down low so I was shooting up.
    And that was the purpose of my comment, to get people to think outside the box.
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