An event tonight made me think--approached from behind
This is a discussion on An event tonight made me think--approached from behind within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I got dinner at Panera Bread tonight around 8PM. The other half didn't want to go inside, so she waited in the car while I ...
October 29th, 2011 09:57 PM
An event tonight made me think--approached from behind
I got dinner at Panera Bread tonight around 8PM. The other half didn't want to go inside, so she waited in the car while I got our takeout sandwiches. I usually don't like anyone being in the car alone, especially at night. I had my Kahr CW9 on me, so if someone had approached the car, she would have been unarmed.
After I got the food, I returned to the car, opened the door, handed her the food, and sat down. Before I could get my feet in the car, a young guy (16-20) approached me on bike and asked if I could give him a few bucks for food. I replied "I'm sorry, I cannot" and he peddled off.
This event made me think a bit... He approached me in a way that I could not see him from inside of the car unless I turned around. The entrance to this part of the parking lot is at an angle. Luckily he didn't get very close to my car. Another positive thing is that I wasn't fully in the car. I find it very hard to unholster from an IWB while inside the car. I usually open carry and always unholster and keep the pistol in the cup holder in the center console so it's accessible and more comfortable to drive. Luckily it was a non-event, even though I REALLY dislike someone approaching me asking for a handout.
The scenario: What if the guy had pulled a gun... What would you have done? Me, I would probably just give him the cash unless there was a way I could have drawn without him realizing. I suppose that since my feet were outside, my back was not showing, I might have been able to do this without him seeing. Still, it would be hard to get a shot off . I guess one could get a shot off when the robber was distracted by taking the wallet. Most of the time, these robberies are quick, but sometimes they like to eliminate witnesses or even try to abduct people.
I'm attaching a map with a circle of where I was parked and where the only entrance to this part of the parking lot is (probably how he came in). I'll also put a blue blip of where the guy on the bike was when he asked me about cash. I was parked facing the north-west part of the map, so he came up on my driver side. After asking, he just went straight, to the left of the Panera Bread.
1) Other half no longer allowed in the car alone.
2) I might start unholstering and keeping the gun within reach in the center console when CC'ing.
3) Just be more aware of my surroundings.
October 29th, 2011 10:27 PM
If the guy pulled a gun:
Feel warm fluid running down your leg. Maybe. Some carry a dummy wallet with a few bills and expired credit cards... Ayoob carried a 10 spot wrapped around a match book (In The Gravest Extreme).
Others, and I am SERIOUSLY considering this, carry a BUG in a "wallet" holster. But in your scenario, you are drawing against the drop, and have your own vehicle making movement off the X a bit problematic, but not impossible.
So, if you've got a "drop wallet" to give him, give it to him... Depending on what your gut tells you, you could feign being terrified... and throw it near him. now he's gotta get it... Here's an opportunity. Maybe he'll take his eyes off you, his gun off you...
Time and distance are your friends, also.
If you want to create time, and your gut tells you this might work... tell him, "She's got all the money, I'll get her purse." That might throw him off his game a bit. Give you time to get into the car... but it better be running, and you better be Joey Chitwood.
For my money, I'm going to try distraction... if I hope to get off a shot... And I do hope to... several in fact.
From your map, the distance is too great to get hands on his gun to deflect his aim, and even if he were closer, you might put the wife at risk... So, if it were me, I'd try distraction to get the muzzle pointed away from me, my car, the wife. His eyes are likely to "follow the money," so to speak... so I'd try to get it near him, but where he's got to move for it... If I can get him to do that, he's mine, as they say.
Of course, he could be well practiced at this... and just say, "nice try... now get over here and hand it to me..." But that gets you closer to him and maybe able to draw against the drop, and move off the X.
It could be worse!
October 30th, 2011 01:24 AM
Not a whole lot to add to oakchas post except do not remove your firearm from your person if anything get a second gun.
It is to easy to step away from the car or not bother with it that one time you need it. A second gun also gives your wife a weapon if needed and she is so inclined.
"A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013
October 30th, 2011 03:33 AM
Getting off of the "X" may put your SO on the "X". Tough spot if you're "stacked". Almost a Mexican standoff, sacrifice for the SO.
To avoid the ultimate sacrifice, put your food / groceries in before yourself. Put the item(s) in the trunk, in the passenger compartment from the passenger door - while on your feet outside, see? Then, you're not distracted with the item handling from your lap to the passenger (who should have your six - but who ever does that?) or to wherever you are stowing the item(s) for travel.
1) stow and 2) survey your 21' sphere, and 3) take your driver's seat with nothing to do but strap in, check mirrors, turn the ignition, and roll.
Seems you found another weakness that needs addressing: drawing inside the car.
Americans understood the right of self-preservation as permitting a citizen to repel force by force
when the intervention of society... may be too late to prevent an injury.
-Blackstone’s Commentaries 145–146, n. 42 (1803) in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008)
October 30th, 2011 05:22 AM
Getting into a vehicle can allow somebody to use your blindspots to get close and personal if they have larceny on their agenda,One thing I do in a parking lot before getting in my vehicle is casually look around 360 to see if there may be a threat,Also once I get inside key in ignition start car and leave,a lot of people get jacked inside their cars adjusting things and don't see the BG til they are at your window
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October 30th, 2011 06:41 AM
A good habit to get into is doing a "walk-around" your vehicle before exiting a parking space. You look for obstructions, things on the ground that might have appeared during your absence, dangers from other parked cars, etc. This helps you avoid accidents and car damage, and it also gives you an SA edge, as a side benefit.
An assailant on a bicycle is hard to defend against. The clown can roll up on you, silently and fast, from a great distance. Practically speaking, if you lose the drop, then hand over the few dollars - it's less trouble all around than dealing with a shooting situation, the cops, the DA, lawyers and such.
From a self-defense standpoint, a person straddling a stationary bicycle is not in a good position. You can kick the bike, for example. If you keep up a line of chatter, e.g., "OK, here, you can have my wallet..." then going for your gun should look as if you're going for your wallet. So there's that, anyway.
Lucky you. For most people, "other half" gets to make her own decisions, and if "other half" wants to sit in car, "other half" will sit in car.
1) Other half no longer allowed in the car alone.
"It may seem difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first."
October 30th, 2011 08:18 AM
Yes, I heartily agree with the walk-around and 360 scan. The only things I would add are to start your scan before you walk out the door, assuming glass doors and lots of windows. Start near (closest threats), then go far. Check to see who is about to enter the lot. You can better see under your car from a distance so use that advantage. Then, after clearing the area, get into your car, immediately lock the doors, start the engine and drive to a spot in the lot where you can not be quickly approached while you are putting on seat belts, etc. Then, make your exit from the lot.
I don't know how many times I have seen people walk out of a store without looking through the windows to see what they are about to walk into or walk out with their eyes down toward the ground. The other thing I see is, they get in their car and start to make checkbook entries.
October 30th, 2011 08:26 AM
Hey Matt: I think you probably answered your own question and concerns over this thread-incident. Situational awareness is number 1 with me--it trumps all the others. As I walk to my car, particularly if it is dark and sparse of others, I am paying mucho attention to everything. If something moves funny or kind of gives me a little hair on end, I just have my hand where it belongs, be it CC or stun or spray, depending where I am and what I am doing (ie in SC you cannot frequent a restaurant that serves alcohol if you are CC--you use your firearm you have to explain why it is on you when you tell LEO that you had just left the restaurant). When my wife is in car, say as I pump gas, the doors are locked and she has the keys. Not great but better than an open door and key in ignition. When I approach and do get in my car, I always take a reasoned and thoughtful look around and I am out of whereever ASAP--sitting there playing around before I leave is not happening--I am vulnerable. Overall, at least where I reside and my lifestyle is concerned, talking these things and just doing them everyday probably is something that will never come into play, but yada yada yada. It is always helpful to read this forum and read comments from fellow forum members that keep you on your toes. Thanks Matt.
October 30th, 2011 08:41 AM
You have learned a valuable lesson with no harm done. Perhaps you may have noticed that panhandler had you looked more carefully.
My wife will sometimes wants to wait in the car...I don't like it, but she's her own person. I do make sure the doors are locked.
Years ago I had a fellow walk up on me in a parking lot looking for money. I never saw him coming...I was not really aware of SA at the time. Not seeing him coming still sticks in my mind...never been surprised since.
Now, I look everywhere...even before parking (like in a Wally World lot) I will drive around a bit to see who's in which cars. When exiting or entering the vehicle, I scan for a while for ANY movement before going on with business.
Last edited by RETSUPT99; October 30th, 2011 at 04:13 PM.
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October 30th, 2011 09:55 AM
I like the reference to Ayoob's drop cash/wallet. Good advice. If someone did assault from a point to close to draw, I'd consider withdrawing or putting them off balance FAST/disarm. You'd need to read there intent to decide your course of action. Comply and look for a window of opportunity?Too many variables, no one answer...
October 30th, 2011 10:38 AM
Did you have a "pull out" parking place too? E.G. You backed into your space or pulled through? Just curious.
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"He went on two legs, wore clothes and was a human being, but nevertheless he was in reality a wolf of the Steppes. He had learned a good deal . . . and was a fairly clever fellow. What he had not learned, however, was this: to find contentment in himself and his own life. The cause of this apparently was that at the bottom of his heart he knew all the time (or thought he knew) that he was in reality not a man, but a wolf of the Steppes."
October 30th, 2011 11:18 AM
IMHO panhandlers have learned from experience that catching someone off-guard, and not giving their target time to think, yields them a more successful handout/robbery.
Watch your blind spots !
Gain a 2A vote, take a fence-sitter shooting.
October 30th, 2011 11:50 AM
Bicycles are very quick, very silent. No one should fool themself into thinking they'll be aware of everything every time!
What ifs, what ifs.... Lest we forget, the guy only asked for a buck for a meal . . . he didn't pull a gun or threaten anyone. Temper your response to the4 circumstance. A hastily pulled firearm is likely to be aggrevated assault.
Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
Paranoia strikes deep, into your life it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid...
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October 30th, 2011 12:24 PM
As I was walking to my car, I could see that entrance to the parking lot and definitely did not see any bike. You are right, bikes do come up really fast. He probably entered after I had already gotten in the car.
Originally Posted by OldVet
October 30th, 2011 12:26 PM
I sneak up on deer all the time on my bike and their SA is about 100 times better than most humans. So relax friend, crap happens and sometimes we miss things. No need to get down on yourself. It sounds like you did fine and will do fine in the future.
I personally like having my SO in the car. It makes me faster when shopping and I get in and out twice as quick. If the SO wants to stay in the car maybe a ccw for her or at the very least some OC spray.
"For the Lord your God will bless you in all your harvest and in all the work of your hands." Deuteronomy 16:15