Back Shooting. Why not?

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Originally Posted by MitchellCT

A lot of people in this thread who need to go read "In the Gravest Extreme" by Massad Ayoob...

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A couple of times.

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Originally Posted by IAm_Not_Lost

You present one of the few scenarios that you may be able to come out in the clear after shooting someone in the back. Lot's of people to testify for you, especially if the bank robber has harmed anyone. In general though, what a DA is going to argue is that since the person you shot had their back turned, they were no threat to you, and thus you should not have shot them in the back. This is why most folks advocate to be a good witness, stay prepared, and be ready if the situation changes.

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You have the right to use lethal force to stop an aggravated felony. If someone is pointing a gun at a third person while doing an armed robbery, I don't see where his direction toward you makes any difference. He is posing an immediate lethal threat to someone, you are allowed to prevent harm from coming to that third party.

The complex issue is that you need to be dang sure you are seeing what you think you are seeing and don't drop an undercover cop.

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Originally Posted by ep1953

Remember the post several months ago where the BG walked into a convenience store and aimed his pistol at the female clerk. He pulled the trigger and fortunately for the lady it misfired. Also fortunate for the lady was the fact that her husband was there visiting her. He pulled his own pistol and shot the BG. I can't remember if the perp died or not but in any case the husband was able to defend his wife.

I would take the same attitude if I witnessed a robbery. You never know when a BG is going to shoot an innocent so go ahead and take the POS out if you have a clear shoot. I don't care what angle he happens to be at.

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Okay, so the BG has the gun aimed at the head of your wife, your mother, your daughter... His finger's on the trigger. You know all about the Medulla Oblongata (because of your day job as a brain surgeon), and you shoot 95% at the range at this distance. Take the shot?

In the reception line later that week, one of your friends gives you a "man hug" and says:

"Sorry about your wife (mother, sister) buddy. But you sure got that Bad Guy... Good for you, you did the right thing, don't beat yourself up over it."

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Originally Posted by Hopyard

You have the right to use lethal force to stop an aggravated felony. If someone is pointing a gun at a third person while doing an armed robbery, I don't see where his direction toward you makes any difference. He is posing an immediate lethal threat to someone, you are allowed to prevent harm from coming to that third party.

The complex issue is that you need to be dang sure you are seeing what you think you are seeing and don't drop an undercover cop.

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See above, and +1 and more so on your last sentence.

So what if your shot doesn't prevent harm from coming to that third party, and instead causes it, directly (your bullet or fragments) or indirectly (the perp's reaction, muscle twitch, what-have-you).

I'm thinking that if you go through all the "what ifs" in your mind, whatever was going to take place will have already taken place while you stood there frozen by paralysis from analysis.

You get the best training and information you can beforehand, you train, and hopefully when the time comes, you will react in the proper manner. But, if you do react, it will probably be a reaction. There won't be a lot of thought process taking place at the time.

Is he holding the teller at gunpoint? If so, you are acting to protect her life, which is in immediate danger. Legit shoot.

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Originally Posted by Gene83

I'm thinking that if you go through all the "what ifs" in your mind, whatever was going to take place will have already taken place while you stood there frozen by paralysis from analysis.

You get the best training and information you can beforehand, you train, and hopefully when the time comes, you will react in the proper manner. But, if you do react, it will probably be a reaction. There won't be a lot of thought process taking place at the time.

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Training does indeed eliminate "paralysis from analysis." So, train to yell "Hey Buddy!" (use the vernacular) take a knee and shoot upward, or from laying on your side. Don't just train against paper targets in the "Weaver modified weaver isosceles upright" (insert your fave here) stance.
Do your analysis here... Do your training for these odd situations there.

And, prevail without mishap (or at the least with a lesser chance of mishap) IRL, if you're lucky.

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Originally Posted by sd976

Is he holding the teller at gunpoint? If so, you are acting to protect her life, which is in immediate danger. Legit shoot.

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Same if your mom (wife, sister, daughter, cousin) is the teller? Okee dokee.

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Originally Posted by oakchas

Training does indeed eliminate "paralysis from analysis." So, train to yell "Hey Buddy!" (use the vernacular) take a knee and shoot upward, or from laying on your side. Don't just train against paper targets in the "Weaver modified weaver isosceles upright" (insert your fave here) stance.
Do your analysis here... Do your training for these odd situations there.

And, prevail without mishap (or at the least with a lesser chance of mishap) IRL, if you're lucky.

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I never liked the Weaver stance, preferring instead practicing five paces to the right, turn sharply at a right angle and fire...

Annoys the hell out of other folks at the range though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUVBR...eature=related

I don't believe that shooting someone in the back to stop a threat makes any difference in the eyes of the law. A person with a gun pointed at another individual with the intent to do harm = good shoot. If the LEO's, DA etc determine it was a justified shooting, the location of the entrance wound will be irrelevant. After all this is not a duel over honor, there is no need to try to make a gunfight for your life "fair". Waiting for the BG to actually point his gun at you so you are justified to shoot is pure silliness. I completely respect those that would choose to remain hidden or for whatever reason choose not to engage but it should not be out of fear of shooting someone in the back.

Side note: As I am sure you are all aware. The stigma of shooting someone in the back came mostly from movies and stories of folks in the "Old West" who would shoot someone days after a dispute when they saw them walking down the street and blasted them out of the blue in revenge.

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Originally Posted by oakchas

Same if your mom (wife, sister, daughter, cousin) is the teller? Okee dokee.

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Absolutely. Does not matter who the teller is...you are shooting to protect her life. OBVIOUSLY you are going to distract him from the intended target. You cannot seriously be that "special".

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Originally Posted by Nerdby Wannabe

Hi! I just got my permit in Wisconsin here, and just found this cool site, and I bought a new Glock with tactical light and laser red dot and a suhweeet 30 round clip and have side mounted sights too so I can shoot "gangsta!" I've never had a gun before, and with the new law here I didn't even have to shoot under the new rules. so, I'm wonderin', I'm packin' my new baby and I go into the bank where Mrs. sd976 works as a teller and there's this guy standin' there with his finger on the trigger of a big like Desert Eagle like man gun and I'm wonderin' should I pop one in his head in the medusa obgotcha and you know make him like drop like a sack o' taters?

Relly kewl site here guys, so whatcha think?

Nerdby Wannabe

sent from my super noid using yapntalk

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Well NW,

First off welcome to the forum! Glad you found us... I've polled all our resident experts on your scenario... And well, I'll just let sd976 speak for the rest of us:

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Originally Posted by sd976

Absolutely. Does not matter who the teller is...you are shooting to protect her life.

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Yeah, that's the ticket!

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Originally Posted by oakchas

Well NW,

First off welcome to the forum! Glad you found us... I've polled all our resident experts on your scenario... And well, I'll just let sd976 speak for the rest of us:




Yeah, that's the ticket!

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I think Nerdy must be a mall ninja. He obviously needs more training :biggrin2:

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Originally Posted by oakchas

Training does indeed eliminate "paralysis from analysis." So, train to yell "Hey Buddy!" (use the vernacular) take a knee and shoot upward, or from laying on your side. Don't just train against paper targets in the "Weaver modified weaver isosceles upright" (insert your fave here) stance.
Do your analysis here... Do your training for these odd situations there.

And, prevail without mishap (or at the least with a lesser chance of mishap) IRL, if you're lucky.

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Absolutely, and by moving/repositioning you help break the OODA loop. He (BG) is expecting you to be standing.

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Originally Posted by oakchas

See above, and +1 and more so on your last sentence.

So what if your shot doesn't prevent harm from coming to that third party, and instead causes it, directly (your bullet or fragments) or indirectly (the perp's reaction, muscle twitch, what-have-you).

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EVERYONE is responsible for where the bullet from their gun ends up. I didn't say an observer of an aggravated assault had a right to be an idiot and shoot the victim.

As for your brain surgeon story above, we all have active and creative imaginations; we can dream up anything that is possible. OK? Do you think it would be a better choice to try to knock the attacker off center before shooting him? What if he gets a shot off as you slam him?

Yup, you could mind your own business, get a good description, let him out the door--- but oops, he shoots the clerk while you are being a good witness.

Look, anything and everything that we all can imagine happening will sometimes happen. Its a game of odds.