Back Shooting. Why not?

This is a discussion on Back Shooting. Why not? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by mlr1m Lets say you can take him with a shot to the back without endangering any innocents? Any moral or legal to ...

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Thread: Back Shooting. Why not?

  1. #61
    Member Array sd976's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlr1m View Post
    Lets say you can take him with a shot to the back without endangering any innocents? Any moral or legal to hold you back now?

    Michael
    Nope.

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  3. #62
    Senior Member Array SFury's Avatar
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    Distracting the BG who has a gun on someone may end up causing them to shoot reflexively as well. You don't know what will happen. You have to commit to a choice, and go with it.

    Personally, if you can't make a shot in this rather simple and deadly encounter, then I wonder why you carry at all. These are the most dangerous types of crimes because of the level violence that began before the BG walked in.

    Thankfully in Wisconsin I can make the shoot because there is an imminent physical threat to others at the very least. That was true with the old laws where OC was the only option as well.

  4. #63
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Cummins asked, "Doesn't our duty and legallity of carry allow us to use deadly force to prevent commission of a forcible felony"



    That's a state specific answer.

    From our code, "Deadly Force in Defense of Person: To prevent the other's imminent commission of aggravated kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault, robbery or aggravated robbery."

    "Deadly Force to Protect Property: To prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery."

    I think this is what Cummins was driving at, and the exact wording of
    "parallel" code will be very state specific.

    Maybe the "No" answer was only to the part of the statement about "duty." But, I read that as applying to permissibility and lawfulness.
    I was responding as to the issue of "duty".

    Duty in law has specific meaning which essentially breaks down to "If you fail to act, you are in the wrong."

    As a person who is not carrying a gun in an official capacity, you have no duty to act. Your permit entitles you to carry a firearm - it conveys no obligation to do so, nor act in any way with it (other than non-negligently).

    You may be permitted to shoot someone in any situation, or not...depending on the applicable law & situation.

    But duty?

    No.

    People who start thinking of "My duty as a CCW carrying person..." end up going into the downward spiral of ccw badges, carrying handcuffs, thinking of citizens arrests and being an official CCW Citizen-Operator.

    Their is a difference between what is legal & permissible in some circumstances, and what is a duty.

    Confuse them or mingle them at your peril.
    baren, Hopyard, oakchas and 1 others like this.

  5. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    Duke not disagreeing it would be state specific but generally you cannot base shooting someone on what he woulda, coulda, shoulda done.

    You have to be able to articulate the reason you used deadly force because YOUR life was in danger at that very moment not the fact that someone else did A or B and he "could have" done the same thing.

    Again this is generally speaking I am sure there are state statutes that would expand your abilities
    Here, the reason which would be articulated is that the guy shot in the back was in the process of committing an aggravated robbery. He was holding a gun (the aggravating factor) and demanding
    money from the store clerk. It is cut and dry. And as HG wrote and I wrote earlier, it is ALWAYS state law specific.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

  6. #65
    TVJ
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Here, the reason which would be articulated is that the guy shot in the back was in the process of committing an aggravated robbery. He was holding a gun (the aggravating factor) and demanding
    money from the store clerk. It is cut and dry. And as HG wrote and I wrote earlier, it is ALWAYS state law specific.


    Yes.



    Here in Texas, its a legal shoot; Title 2, Chapter 9.....aggravated robbery.....Texas greenlights the use of force and/or lethal force.

    Know the law in your own state.

    Shoot him wherever you tactically choose.....head, neck, COM, foot, back.....all of the above...until perp no longer a threat. Then stop pulling the trigger.

    I applaud those of you who which to engage him in such a way that you decrease the risk he shoots the clerk and increase your own personal risk of getting shot/injured/potentially killed. I mean my applause to you sincerely.

    I choose ambush and keep my risk as small as I can.

    Ultimately, the clerk chooses to work in a convenience store for a living.
    "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men in a society, over the course of time they create for themselves a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it."
    - Frederic Bastiat

  7. #66
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellCT View Post
    I was responding as to the issue of "duty".

    Duty in law has specific meaning which essentially breaks down to "If you fail to act, you are in the wrong."

    As a person who is not carrying a gun in an official capacity, you have no duty to act. Your permit entitles you to carry a firearm - it conveys no obligation to do so, nor act in any way with it (other than non-negligently).

    . . .
    It was the DUTY word that baited me as well.
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

  8. #67
    Member Array sd976's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SFury View Post
    Distracting the BG who has a gun on someone may end up causing them to shoot reflexively as well. You don't know what will happen. You have to commit to a choice, and go with it.

    Personally, if you can't make a shot in this rather simple and deadly encounter, then I wonder why you carry at all. These are the most dangerous types of crimes because of the level violence that began before the BG walked in.

    Thankfully in Wisconsin I can make the shoot because there is an imminent physical threat to others at the very least. That was true with the old laws where OC was the only option as well.
    No deadly encounter is "simple" as you say. Every one of them is a complicated situation with many variables. You are responsible for where each of those rounds that you may fire goes, target or beyond. It is not simple, by any means.

    You can wonder why others carry, I carry because I am required to.

  9. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    I know I didn't spell his name correctly, but Massoob just had an article about the many reasons a BG might be shot in the back--legimately. No doubt it will be hard to explain to the authorities, but if you gotta--you gotta.
    His name is Massad Ayoob.
    Personally, I believe the threat, or threats are moving AWAY from you, so in one respect, you've got some explaining to do when the Police arrive.
    Just my own opinion, but I'd never shoot somebody in their back, because they're moving away from me.
    Why Waltz when you can Rock-N-Roll

  10. #69
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    Ya know, I've gotten a little overheated in this debate... About trying to draw the muzzle of the BG's hand cannon off of your wife's (mother's/sister's/cousin's) forehead. I'm just gonna ignore the rules of gun safety, I mean, this is life and death, right?

    So what if I take 'em both out? If that happens, I'm battin' 500 at my first game, that's good play! Heck with it! I got the badguy didn't I?

    I'm sure at your wife's funeral, you'll be pattin' me on the back and telling me how great it was I was there and took out that scum, you'll tell your kids to shake my hand and thank me 'cause I'm the good guy.

    Nah, somehow that just doesn't work for me. Sure, I'll take the shot. But I'll do my level best to try to keep anyone else from gettin' killed (directly or indirectly) before I do.

    1. All guns are always loaded.
    2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.
    3. Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target.
    4. Be sure of your target and what is beyond it.
    sd976 likes this.
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

  11. #70
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    If you think their is an easy answer to any situation involving a gun...one which doesn't involve decision making skill that is in excess of shooting skill - you are right.

    It's just the wrong answer.

  12. #71
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellCT View Post
    If you think their is an easy answer to any situation involving a gun...one which doesn't involve decision making skill that is in excess of shooting skill - you are right.

    It's just the wrong answer.
    HuH? I'm sorry, which?

    There is no easy answer to any sit. involving a gun. Check.

    There is an answer that requires decision making skills that might be greater than one's shooting skill. Gotcha.

    Ahhhh... okay.. I parsed the lawyers meaning... ! By now, I've been shot of course, and the clerk/teller, as well ... But I ciphered it out!

    it's "there" not their, BTW. (or you could use theirs, making their answer the one which is wrong.)

    And, "thank you for your support!" I think.
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

  13. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    Ya know, I've gotten a little overheated in this debate... About trying to draw the muzzle of the BG's hand cannon off of your wife's (mother's/sister's/cousin's) forehead. I'm just gonna ignore the rules of gun safety, I mean, this is life and death, right?

    So what if I take 'em both out? If that happens, I'm battin' 500 at my first game, that's good play! Heck with it! I got the badguy didn't I?

    I'm sure at your wife's funeral, you'll be pattin' me on the back and telling me how great it was I was there and took out that scum, you'll tell your kids to shake my hand and thank me 'cause I'm the good guy.

    Nah, somehow that just doesn't work for me. Sure, I'll take the shot. But I'll do my level best to try to keep anyone else from gettin' killed (directly or indirectly) before I do.

    1. All guns are always loaded.
    2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.
    3. Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target.
    4. Be sure of your target and what is beyond it.
    I am not trying to argue just understand. You say that the shot should only be taken if the BG moves his gun from the clerk/teller. You also think shouting or somehow getting the BG's attention is the way to go. So startling a BG with a gun pointed at your wife's head, when I assume he is already in a state of heightened stress and most likely not concerned with trigger discipline, is how you make sure he does not reflexively pull the trigger. Plus you seem to be assuming that the only possible position is you are the next customer in line and the BG is directly between you and your Mom the the teller. By the way In WI we all not only have sights on the side of the slide for proper gangsta technique but always use one gun in each hand to maximize the impact.

  14. #73
    Distinguished Member Array Madcap_Magician's Avatar
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    There's no rule that says that shooting someone in the back is never justifiable homicide (self defense).

    Did you meet the standards for self defense in your state? That's all that matters.
    9MMare likes this.
    Hakkaa päälle!

  15. #74
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doubledown View Post
    I am not trying to argue just understand. You say that the shot should only be taken if the BG moves his gun from the clerk/teller. You also think shouting or somehow getting the BG's attention is the way to go. So startling a BG with a gun pointed at your wife's head, when I assume he is already in a state of heightened stress and most likely not concerned with trigger discipline, is how you make sure he does not reflexively pull the trigger. Plus you seem to be assuming that the only possible position is you are the next customer in line and the BG is directly between you and your Mom the the teller. By the way In WI we all not only have sights on the side of the slide for proper gangsta technique but always use one gun in each hand to maximize the impact.
    Sigh.

    Yep, I'm making some assumptions.

    They are:
    • Yelling at the bad guy is one way to get his attention. It is one way which is not physical, and might be less likely (because it is non-physical) to cause him to tense his muscles (like those on his trigger finger).
    • The BG may already be experiencing some effects of Adrenaline (plus maybe some externally introduced chemicals) causing him to suffer tunnel vision, auditory exclusion, etc. to greater or lesser degree. This may cause him to turn more full body than just head, away from his current target.
    • If I am at an angle, side or down from him, I am less likely to cause friendly fire/collateral damage injuries.


    They are not:
    • I am next in line. (I could be in an aisle in the convenience store, I could be at the stand up desk at the bank, etc.)
    • It is the only course of action which will succeed.


    I do posit that, since someone mentioned odds; that my course of action might be the one with the best odds for good potential outcome = BG down or dead, teller/clerk and others minimally injured, blood spatter/stained clothing/gray detritus on their person, and some mental anguish.

    If, as some have suggested, you merely stitch his backside with holes, that indicates to me that they are the ones thinking "I'm right behind him, there is no other thing/body interfering with my shots, and so what if he pulls he trigger reflexively and kills the clerk/teller." (speaking generally and not singling any one particular post out though some obviously came to mind)

    My premise is this, based loosely on the OP. You apparently have the time to draw and aim undetected. It takes no longer to take a knee and shoot upwards. It has a chance of working to yell "Hey Moe Funkerly!" and get his attention, and quite possibly the muzzle of his gun, off the clerk/teller. Since you have had the time to (without detection) drop to a knee, draw, and aim (in any tactical order you prefer), you are instantly prepared to press/pull/squeeze/caress the dang trigger and get the head shot. follow up as needed and desired.

    Getting close to him physically, by running at him, getting close enough to grab the weapon arm, etc. has a greater chance (and takes longer) of being detected. Contact, even if undetected; by a bullet, a shoulder, or any thing else, while the BG's gun is trained on the forehead of the clerk/teller (except for a surgically placed shot that severs the spinal cord and/or destroys the MO, could cause him to discharge his weapon into the head of said clerk/teller.

    Feel free to disagree all you want. But, if it was my wife standing under the gun, I would prefer you do everything you can to avoid having her get killed by your heroism, and get the badguy, too.

    For my money, the priority in this scenario is this.
    1. The life of the target
    2. My life
    3. The life of the bad guy


    If I get the gun off of 1. and before it gets to 2. I can do whatever I want to 3.
    If I get the gun off of 1. and it gets to 2. before I dispatch 3. then so be it. But 3. is gone anyway, maybe 2. but not 1.
    If I cannot get the gun off of 1. punt.
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

  16. #75
    Member Array FatPants's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellCT View Post
    A lot of people in this thread who need to go read "In the Gravest Extreme" by Massad Ayoob...
    It's out of print, I've been looking for a copy for some time.

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