Your friends course of action?

This is a discussion on Your friends course of action? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by tacman605 Lima and the sad part is that is becoming the trend. Just enough to get by to get what I want ...

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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    Lima and the sad part is that is becoming the trend. Just enough to get by to get what I want and then not go any further. I have a gun bad guys run in fear which turns into us saying "Oh crap Bill is carrying today, lets get a to go plate".

    We say well that is up to them, it does not affect me, it is there right, all true statements until something like this happens and we are the spectator and have no say so and we are now relying on the other guys skill level to protect us or someone we care about
    Okay, let's start by being honestly realistic.

    The chances of something like this happening is probably incalculable. I have never heard of it happening.... ever. Two concealed carry friends ending up in a standoff with a hostage taker who just happens to grab a relative or close friend? That is something for Hollywood, to be quite frank. I'm sure something similar may have happened in a law enforcement setting at some time but civilian? I understand that there is still value in thinking about the scenario which is why I participated but I also realize that this scenario exceptionally remote.

    That being said, you are not the spectator. Nor is your friend or your familiar hostage. Nor is the waitress or the guy on the street. You are all in the situation together and all part of the dynamic. You have choices, including negotiation, distraction and so much more. You are only a spectator if you choose to be. Granted, your active participation may do more harm than good but that's a risk you take, just like with everything else.

    or what if our friend is by himself? Do we assume the guilt if he is gunned down or misses the shot and hits someone else because we know he could not survive the encounter? We are our brothers keepers folks when it comes to this subject, now how far we jump into this is an individual choice.
    First of all, no one can say who can survive an encounter and who can't. Every scenario is different and your friend could survive while you don't. You just don't know.

    And I have to disagree with you about the "brother's keeper" thing.

    I guess everyone must individually decide what they think of as "being a brother's keeper," but to me, if I took responsibility for every single one of my friend's decisions I would never sleep at night. And I have friends and family that are making FAR more important decisions in their life than whether or not they are training with their firearms.

    I have friends/family deciding on marriage, infidelity, childcare, divorce, abuse, finances, etc, etc, etc. These are things that are going to affect them far more than whether or not they watch a training DVD. I can no more take responsibility for their wrong choices in those areas than I can for their choices about training.

    I can counsel them, I can encourage them, I can work with them and offer them help just like I could in any other area of their life but the ultimate decision is their own and I cannot take responsibility for that else I start forgetting my own place and responsibilities.

    sit them down and talk to them. "I know this is awkward but you really need to do more with your training before you hurt yourself or someone else" "It is really straining our friendship".
    I think you can sit down and talk to them but letting something like that come between a good friendship? That, I believe , is going overboard.

    Maybe some people have so many close friends in such abundance that they don't care if they loose one or maybe my definition of friend is a little more strict but the close friends I have who I actually go out with and spend time with and confide in are very valuable to me. I rely on them for help and support and care in many other areas of my life and to let something like defensive training come between us just seems very silly and small minded to me. (No offense)

    I realize that even then some will still not go to classes, not watch the dvd's, or go shooting so now if you choose to be around them you have to increase your skill level, your SA, your mindset as you have now adopted a muppet with a gun and when you are around them you become their protector should you choose to do so.
    Again, in reality the likelihood of having to use your firearm in self defense is slim. Slimmer still if you smart and observant.

    Yes, you have a choice as to whether you are going to become your friend's "protector" but I'm not sure why you would have to increase your SA or mindset any more than what you should already be striving for.

    You have no way of knowing how ready someone else is.

    I haven't fired a gun in seven months. It will probably be at least another month or two before I will be able to go back to training. I still carry a gun. Some "good friend" who has been able to spend the last seven months training and practicing might look at me as more of a liability than an asset right now but I still have the right to defend myself. And, quite frankly, I'd be REALLY ticked off if someone thought they could try to evaluate my readiness and how much I should hang around them because of THEIR perception of my ability (or lack thereof).

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  3. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    ... a muppet with a gun ...

    That's right up there with the time out chair, thanks. I also found Kermit with an AK, ready for an avatar change?

  4. #48
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    "be cool honeybunny"
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    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    There are HRT and SWAT shooters out there that can shoot the pants off any "10-yard-card-edge shooter;" some with handguns, all with long guns, and who have killed folks in real life, who would not take the shot until the muzzle was off of the hostage.

    Verbal Judo, defuse the situation if possible. Clear shot, to me, means gun off the hostage.

    Wow what was I thinking, here I am just a silly citizen, how could I possibly make a shot like that when the pros wonít do it. Well I donít insist that I get paid before I go to the range, nor do I look at it like itís a job only me and my fellow team members are capable of doing.

    Seems that I read that as gun handlers the police are a bit lacking in general. How can that be you ask? Letís start with according to fed stats one in four shots on scene fired by police is unintentional, follow that up with 11% of the time they shoot the wrong person like fellow officers, compared to the armed citizen we only hit the wrong person 2% of the time. Of course we donít have all the training but somehow we get by.

    For the record I have only split a card just short of half way, only tried it twice, one only got a dent and gray line on one side, but I was using round nose FMJs.
    I carry a 1911 for several reasons, one of the most important ones is trigger control, if the day ever comes that I am caught in such a situation like this, I do have the skills to get it done and the ability to know my limits.

    As far as muzzle off, being when his is off the hostage, that would depend on what he has, and itís ready condition, like a cocked revolver VS a hammer down.

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    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    As much as this isn't a topic I'd like to entertain, all need to remember the extremely small target that requires a clean hit to induce immediate incapacitation. Anything else may result is the BG pulling the trigger. We're talking a very small area of a someone moving target that is not very exposed...behind family...with adrenaline pumping. Sorry, not happening.
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

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    Sorry. In this life I'm responsible for myself, my wife and my two daughters. I am not my "brother's keeper", I am not a "sheepdog" (most ridiculous used term), I am not a "wolf", I'm no "ambassador" for "the cause" or any other cause and I am certainly not responsible for making sure are trained or even proficient in their use of weapons.

    This notion is absolutely absurd.

  8. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by ntkb View Post
    Wow what was I thinking, here I am just a silly citizen, how could I possibly make a shot like that when the pros wonít do it. Well I donít insist that I get paid before I go to the range, nor do I look at it like itís a job only me and my fellow team members are capable of doing.

    Seems that I read that as gun handlers the police are a bit lacking in general. How can that be you ask? Letís start with according to fed stats one in four shots on scene fired by police is unintentional, follow that up with 11% of the time they shoot the wrong person like fellow officers, compared to the armed citizen we only hit the wrong person 2% of the time. Of course we donít have all the training but somehow we get by.

    For the record I have only split a card just short of half way, only tried it twice, one only got a dent and gray line on one side, but I was using round nose FMJs.
    I carry a 1911 for several reasons, one of the most important ones is trigger control, if the day ever comes that I am caught in such a situation like this, I do have the skills to get it done and the ability to know my limits.

    As far as muzzle off, being when his is off the hostage, that would depend on what he has, and itís ready condition, like a cocked revolver VS a hammer down.
    Not talking about line cops (Constables On Patrol).. talking about the shooters... not all Dept's have 'em. Those that do, I guarantee they spend more time on the range, than you or I do... unless that is, you're a sponsored competitive shooter...

    And what you said was:
    (And yes I have no doubt I can hit where I want at that distance, I have shot card edges at 10 yards)
    Certainly makes it sound like you do it frequently...not twice in your life... and were those cards holding a gun on your loved one?

    As to your bringing up statistics... please, let's not go down that road. Yep, cops are in general, statistically lousy shots. They still have statistically more exposure to real "activity" than you or I will ever have...

    But, using your style of parallels; race car drivers have more accidents per capita than civilians, and most of them only have to make left hand turns. And they only have to drive on weekends... Easy peasy, huh...
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

  9. #53
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JD View Post
    That's right up there with the time out chair, thanks. I also found Kermit with an AK, ready for an avatar change?
    I call BS!

    Kermit uses a FN:FAL. Kermit is Old School, and makes no bones about it.

  10. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by limatunes View Post
    Boy is THAT easier said than done.

    I've offered free classes to people I care about just to get them started and still get turned down.

    Some people just don't care.

    As one individual told me, "I did what was required to get my permit. School's out."

    You can't make someone train.
    You hang with the same people I do...

  11. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by limatunes;
    The chances of something like this happening is probably incalculable. I have never heard of it happening.... ever. Two concealed carry friends ending up in a standoff with a hostage taker who just happens to grab a relative or close friend?
    Unfortunately, I don't agree with you ... and it's not Hollywood. It happens often, it's just not typically reported in the news. Anything from a home invasion, robbery, or even a domestic violence situation, car jacking, someone bumbles into your back door because the police were chasing them ..... where someone has a gun to someone else's head, and is threatening to kill them. And, if your buddy happens to be there with you ..... there ya go.

    I have come into a lot of those situations, although the person with the gun to their head was not a relative, and was able to talk a lot of people out of guns, knives, etc.... that they had to someone's throat or head and threatening to kill them. This was before there were "hostage negotiators" .... and I was called into situations many times because I was good at it.

    However, the scenario given.... is way to generalized to answer. But, your brain is your best weapon, use it. The better option is to always be prepared , situational awareness, and acting very quickly if a situation begins to develop or occurs so that this does not ever end up in that type of situation..... because once they have physical control of someone, your options decline drastically.

    You may have to decide if you can, to escape and live, so there is at least one parent alive to take care of the kids ..... and you can call 911 and get LEO's equipped and more prepared to deal with the situation.
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  12. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eagleks View Post
    Unfortunately, I don't agree with you ... and it's not Hollywood. It happens often, it's just not typically reported in the news. Anything from a home invasion, robbery, or even a domestic violence situation, car jacking, someone bumbles into your back door because the police were chasing them ..... where someone has a gun to someone else's head, and is threatening to kill them. And, if your buddy happens to be there with you ..... there ya go.
    I wasn't saying hostage situations don't happen. I know those happen frequently enough.

    I was talking about the exact scenario listed... hostage situation of relative with you and your untrained friend.. specifically a scenario wherein you come back from the restroom to find your untrained friend shakily pointing his firearm at your relative and hostage taker... that is what I was saying I had never heard of happening.

    COULD it happen? Sure... anything is possible. But I've never heard of it.

    As I stated, however, I understand the validity of thinking of how one would deal with an untrained friend and how (if at all) you would/could try to somehow take control of a seemingly out-of-control situation.

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    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    For the record, Cirillo took out three guys robbing a store, two behind a hostage, one of them only exposing about 9" of his head from something like 30 feet or more. So, it surely can happen but the likelyhood of it happening to us is slim to none, and I always expect the worst.

    Now, I mean this with all due respect, but most of us are just not trained well enough to handle these situations. I train hard and often. Much of my training now is tactics based and now and then I'm in a shoot house in situations that make you think. Every time there are hostage targets occasionally on movers, some with little exposure, some with a lot. When I attend a class focused on close quarters that is set up this way with many very highly skilled and trained shooters, numerous time is one of the no-shoot targets hit, even with a carbine and sometimes on the third or fourth run through. I've learned a lot from this. I'm extremely comfortable in a shoot house and pretty sure of myself, though not cocky. I know what I'm capable of and even more now and I'd not be taking that shot unless I was 100% sure he was going to kill them.

    As for the friend, I'm very doubtful of that happening. Luckily my friends are better than me and likely I'd be the one shaking!

    Tactics do not always mean which corner to take first on entry or the best method of entering a room and what formation should be used, it often means we are faced with situations that require thought on whether we should shoot or not. This is one of those situations that cries for reasoning and at least an effort to talk it all down, whether that's the friend or bad guy. Believe me, I'd want to crush some dude holding a gun to a family member's head, but under this circumstances it may not be the best choice.

    EDIT - I was drifting a bit from the topic I guess and focusing more on the shot than the friend. In that case, following the guidelines of the original post, I think I'd focus more on talking the friend down...maybe? I don't know. Things happen very quickly and not very often is there a standoff. Moves are made, adrenaline is surging and things happen quickly. I keep trying to think what I do, then I think about all the situations I can think of and logic tells me this particular thing want be happening, but I'd it does, I likely won't have time or opportunity to handle anything as it will have played itself out quickly. All I can say with 100% certainty is that I will do something, though I'm not sure what.

    Again, "be cool honeybunny".
    Last edited by jonconsiglio; November 14th, 2011 at 12:31 PM.
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

  14. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by JD View Post
    That's right up there with the time out chair, thanks. I also found Kermit with an AK, ready for an avatar change?
    Thanks. Kermit with an AK just became my facebook photo.
    It is surely true that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. Nor can you make them grateful for your efforts.

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    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post

    I realize that even then some will still not go to classes, not watch the dvd's, or go shooting so now if you choose to be around them you have to increase your skill level, your SA, your mindset as you have now adopted a muppet with a gun and when you are around them you become their protector should you choose to do so.
    The unfortunate reality with many, even many here (not saying everyone) which take it more seriously than your average CHL holder, do not seek additional training. I think most get their CHL and carry because it makes them feel safe. I often hear people say they don't need a class because they're a decent shot... Unfortunately being a good shot at the local indoor range does not mean you'll be a good shot when you're wrestling with some scumbag and can only get. Shot off from your support side.

    Being a good shot has nothing to do with critical thinking, situational awareness, mindset and the ability to adapt to dynamic situations that are constantly changing.

    I hate to use quotes in my post, but that one from Cooper about owning a guitar not making you a musician really stands out right now.

    One thing I think abut when we talk about people not getting training is the guy at the mall that confronted the shooter. I forget his name, but he drew on a shooter at the mall, I believe, and instead of taking the shot, he yelled out. Warning and got himself shot in the process. It's great that he did something, it's just unfortunate he didn't have the traning that possibly could have allowed him to prevail.
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

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    Ex Member Array Bullet1234's Avatar
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    Really makes me think if any of my friends fit this profile ,,,, and start inviting friends
    to shoot with me more.

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