Unarmed Home Invasion - Page 3

Unarmed Home Invasion

This is a discussion on Unarmed Home Invasion within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by SIXTO OK, but only if you prove yours from 18. Touche. Both would be hard to prove. I just operate under the ...

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Thread: Unarmed Home Invasion

  1. #31
    Distinguished Member Array 21bubba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    OK, but only if you prove yours from 18.
    Touche. Both would be hard to prove.

    I just operate under the DUCK system. Looks like a duck, walks like a duck, sounds like a duck. Must be a duck, not what if it's a crow that looks like a duck.
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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21bubba View Post
    Touche. Both would be hard to prove.

    I just operate under the DUCK system. Looks like a duck, walks like a duck, sounds like a duck. Must be a duck, not what if it's a crow that looks like a duck.
    I will leave you with this food for thought;

    According to the American council on aging, at any given time there are approximately 5.1 million Americans with some form of dementia. 60% of those people wander away from their homes, and many of those do so multiple times. Thats a lot of "Uncle Charlies" roaming around. That does not include all the drunk college kids who might make a drunken mistake from time to time, or the high school daughters boyfriends who have been known to sneak in a window or two.

    Now, don't get me wrong, I'd be super pissed if any of these "harmless" events took place in my home. However, the point is, I'm sure I do not want the hassles of being involved in a shooting, especially over something so trivial in comparison. Even if there is no legal or financial repercussions, I do not want to scrub blood out of my carpet and patch drywall for something that could have been handled with a strong arm and swift boot.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  3. #33
    Senior Member Array BRTCP88's Avatar
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    I agree with Oakchas, as long as he keeps his distance and his hands visible, I'm happy to wait and let the Sheriff's Deputies deal with him. Oh and I actually had a Neighbor who had dementia about ten years ago. He tried to get into my house once. Scared the bejeezus out of my mom. He was banging on the window and cussing at her. I think his Daughter finally came over and got him calmed down. Can't remember. I've often wondered what would have happened if he'd gotten in. So, even though they have no malice, someone with Dementia can be a threat.
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  4. #34
    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gasmitty View Post
    - I never leave my doors unlocked, so if he's in my home, he had to break in.
    - If I've never seen him before, there is no way for me to know he's demented.
    - If he's making himself a sandwich, no problem. If he is simply "out of it" and refuses to leave, no problem, I can call for help and avoid any escalation. If he threatens me with deadly force or approaches me aggressively, he's in for a rough time.
    This is pretty much my thoughts too. I would try to call for help first if possible. Any quick moves on his part and I would have to assume he is either going for a weapon or otherwise trying to harm me.

    My first duty is to myself. Not to some poor individual who may be in the wrong house.

    Michael

  5. #35
    Member Array Doubledown's Avatar
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    Just a quick thought, I have not seen too many dementia patients that, if unarmed, could pose a genuine threat to an adult male. So you find this wanderer in your house he may get loud and angry with confusion but still never be considered a threat requiring lethal force.

    To the original question, I assume he was talking about a real robber, weapon visible or not if he moves in any direction that is not out the door things get loud and messy.

  6. #36
    Senior Member Array ntkb's Avatar
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    I would much rather not have to shoot anyone unnecessarily but at the same time I am not willing to let the invader get an upper hand, as stated before there lots of things in the house that can be used as a weapon.

    I would think if he is coming through window or braking down a door as he gets into the home he will receive lead, but if I just found him standing in the living room with the door open behind him, probably call LE and see what happens from there.

    In order to know that he is unarmed wouldn’t it be necessary for him to like be in his underwear or swim trunks?

  7. #37
    Distinguished Member Array kapnketel's Avatar
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    He may be unarmed now but he can become armed easily. Do you have knives in the kitchen? A lamp that could become a club? That being said, I am in a Castle Doctrine state so if in another state then the situation requires the actual threat. However, while I could shoot, I would always prefer retreat if possible while I wait for the authorities. Kind of depends on his actions-is he tearing up theplace or just standing there, etc. If he's acting crazy (lots of meth in this part of the world) I think I would probably shoot.

    I hope I never have to find out...
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  8. #38
    Senior Member Array Moga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarisataka View Post
    I cannot be 100% sure the perp is unarmed. I will take any movement except to comply with my orders to be a threat
    This statement sums it up for me. I'm not of the "hold 'em at gunpoint until the cops arrive" mindset either. Git or get shot. Make a choice.

    Older people that are physically able to breech my home by force may get a smidgin more tolerance at first, but not much. They can be dangerous too, especially if they're not of sound mind. Elderly folks, like children, warrant a totally different response.

    I don't know about you folks but I ain't drawing my eyes away from a intruder in my home for a mere second, let alone long enough to set up a speaker call on the phone. The alarm dials out to the local cavalry anyway. The immediate threat in front of me is what needs to be managed first.
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  9. #39
    Senior Member Array Spade115's Avatar
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    I see it simply someone breaks into my house seems unarmed depending on what part of the house he is in will determine how much force to give. i have a shotgun and a 3dcell mag light, rifles a semi so reloading isnt a problem. if they are out of it, girlfriends calling the police I am looking around incase its a trap and someone is trying to sneak up behind me. Just because you find one person out of it dosnt mean there might not be more. If the guys sitting at the table eating some food and seems just lost or might need help ill pull up a seat at a good distance and grab some food while we wait for the cops. lol
    When life gives you lemons, Open a lemonaid buisness.

  10. #40
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    A lot of things can be considered "Deadly" weapons,hands,feet,lamps,chairs,vases............. ..,you have to use your judgement,he/she has already broken into your home and is refusing to leave,If they're oviously jacked-up,911 and stay on the phone with weapon drawn,besure to tell operator you're armed,explain the sit,tell them you will be outside when L.E arrives and then "OBEY" their commands.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pro2A View Post
    Someone has broken into your home. They are unarmed but won't leave or respond to you. You have Castle Doctrine in your state.

    You are armed, how would you react with these grey areas of self defense (or defense of others). Assume you are in this situation and don't respond with what you would have done to avoid it.

  11. #41
    VIP Member Array JDE101's Avatar
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    A lot of food for thought in the various posts. As I see it, the response could well depend on your individual age/physical condition, the age physial condition of the intruder, location in the house, and your states castle doctrine, among other factors.

    Ohio has a castle doctrine. My house has steel security storm door front and back, which my wife and I keep locked at all times. It is very unlikely that someone's poor old demented uncle Charlie, a teenager looking for his girlfriend, a drunk thinking it is his house, or anyone else, is going to "wander" in to my house!

    I am nearly 70 and in fairly good shape, but even though I have had martial arts training in the past, I'm not going to take on a 20 or 30 year old druggie hopped up on crack in a hand to hand fight!

    While I have no desire to shoot anyone, anyone who breaks into my house will be considered a threat to the safety of my wife and me. If there is enough distance between them and me and they make no threatening move, I would call 911 and wait for the police to get the person out of my house. But if they made one move in my direction, they get a quick double tap from a .45 or a single blast of 00 buckshot, depending on what I have in my hand(s) at the time, which would depend on where I was at the time of the breakin. The shotgun is kept under the bed. The .45 or a snubby .38 is always on me or within reach of my hand wherever I am in the house.
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  12. #42
    VIP Member Array rammerjammer's Avatar
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    I guess the perp would have trouble responding to me while my giant Doberman is attacking him. I would do my best to not shoot my dog.
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  13. #43
    Senior Member Array Spade115's Avatar
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    I like the last post, I really do :D
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  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21bubba View Post
    Is the invasion of your home not enough of a threat to satisfy you? Your portrayal of this person as "poor uncle charlie the dementia sufferer" is a long strech and you know it.
    I actually don't think it is all that far of a stretch, given the scenario presented.

    Somebody in my home, not responding to me screaming at them with a 12 gauge or .45 pointed at them is a bit of a long stretch to begin with. If it is a criminal, the odds are they would respond, either by attacking me (at which point I defend myself), or running away (more likely, since criminals tend to be cowards).

    So the whole "unresponsive" bit adds more to the picture. Dementia patients, lost drunks, druggies and the like. I do understand that there are weapons all over the place, and like I said, as soon as the person becomes a threat, I will handle that with appropriate force. But, until the intruder becomes an active and imminent threat to myself, I am not going to do so.

    I am going to maintain distance, have speakerphone going, and try to get them to leave.
    Fortes Fortuna Juvat

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  15. #45
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    21Bubba,

    FWIW, in KY, you would be okay shooting just with them in your house:

    503.055 Use of defensive force regarding dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle --
    Exceptions.
    (1) A person is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or
    great bodily harm to himself or herself or another when using defensive force that is
    intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another if:
    (a) The person against whom the defensive force was used was in the process of
    unlawfully and forcibly entering or had unlawfully and forcibly entered a
    dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle, or if that person had removed or was
    attempting to remove another against that person's will from the dwelling,
    residence, or occupied vehicle; and
    (b) The person who uses defensive force knew or had reason to believe that an
    unlawful and forcible entry or unlawful and forcible act was occurring or had
    occurred.
    (2) The presumption set forth in subsection (1) of this section does not apply if:
    (a) The person against whom the defensive force is used has the right to be in or
    is a lawful resident of the dwelling, residence, or vehicle, such as an owner,
    lessee, or titleholder, and there is not an injunction for protection from
    domestic violence or a written pretrial supervision order of no contact against
    that person;
    (b) The person sought to be removed is a child or grandchild, or is otherwise in
    the lawful custody or under the lawful guardianship of the person against
    whom the defensive force is used;
    (c) The person who uses defensive force is engaged in an unlawful activity or is
    using the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle to further an unlawful
    activity; or
    (d) The person against whom the defensive force is used is a peace officer, as
    defined in KRS 446.010, who enters or attempts to enter a dwelling,
    residence, or vehicle in the performance of his or her official duties, and the
    officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or
    the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person
    entering or attempting to enter was a peace officer.
    (3) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any
    other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right
    to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force, if he or
    she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm
    to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a felony involving
    the use of force.
    (4) A person who unlawfully and by force enters or attempts to enter a person's
    dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle is presumed to be doing so with the intent
    to commit an unlawful act involving force or violence.
    Not the case in Ohio.
    Fortes Fortuna Juvat

    Former, USMC 0311, OIF/OEF vet
    NRA Pistol/Rifle/Shotgun/Reloading Instructor, RSO, Ohio CHL Instructor

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