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Premeditated murder or Self-Defense?

This is a discussion on Premeditated murder or Self-Defense? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; This is a perfect example of why a gun is the last resort and not the first. Lots of options from not going, to bringing ...

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Thread: Premeditated murder or Self-Defense?

  1. #16
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    This is a perfect example of why a gun is the last resort and not the first. Lots of options from not going, to bringing pepper, to bringing extra friends along.

    For us non LEOs, you don't bring a gun where you expect trouble; you don't go.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
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  2. #17
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    For us non LEOs, you don't bring a gun where you expect trouble; you don't go
    Its not always that simple...especially when people you love are hurting and ask for your help. Any man worth his salt would do what he could to help.

    I see this happen enough to know what could happen if you choose to act or not act.
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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  3. #18
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    Depends on where you are at.

    We have had several cases like this over the years.

    Most of them even went to court.
    Can you give some specifics, outcomes?

    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    Its not always that simple...especially when people you love are hurting and ask for your help. Any man worth his salt would do what he could to help.

    I see this happen enough to know what could happen if you choose to act or not act.
    Elucidate?

    I'm interested in what you've seen that goes both ways... I believe it can go either way... I believe the safest course of action is to call LEO. But depending on the situation, that can take sooooo long... and you risk losing a loved one.
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    Its not always that simple...especially when people you love are hurting and ask for your help. Any man worth his salt would do what he could to help.

    I see this happen enough to know what could happen if you choose to act or not act.
    Depends on how you define "help", I guess. I don't let crazy people drive my bus.
    Hopyard, MadMac and Bark'n like this.

  5. #20
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    The problem is that things happen soooo quickly sometimes that waiting for a cop to get there is going to do you little good.

    Self Defense, is just that, self defense. It dosent matter if you are in someone elses house, or you injected yourself into a mess, it is what it is and the facts will come out eventually.

    Of course, in discussing matters such as these, it important to note that what may be legal in one place may not be in another.

    I've been called to several events that involved use of force by one party or another in domestic situations like the one described. Yes, it can be complicated and messy and one or both parties could be at fault.

    In this part of the country we tend to favor the abused over the abuse and usually they have a history that makes it easier to make a judgment.

    Some things are not always as they seem, so one must proceed with caution.

    Even so, Premeditated Murder is a long way from Self Defense. Thats all I'm gonna say about that.
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    The problem is that things happen soooo quickly sometimes that waiting for a cop to get there is going to do you little good.

    Self Defense, is just that, self defense. It dosent matter if you are in someone elses house, or you injected yourself into a mess, it is what it is and the facts will come out eventually.

    Of course, in discussing matters such as these, it important to note that what may be legal in one place may not be in another.

    I've been called to several events that involved use of force by one party or another in domestic situations like the one described. Yes, it can be complicated and messy and one or both parties could be at fault.

    In this part of the country we tend to favor the abused over the abuse and usually they have a history that makes it easier to make a judgment.

    Some things are not always as they seem, so one must proceed with caution.

    Even so, Premeditated Murder is a long way from Self Defense. Thats all I'm gonna say about that.
    Thanks. Kinda what I thought... It isn't really quite cut and dried, either way... Intervening in someone else's home certainly makes it a risky proposition from a legal and civil standpoint... Not intervening can cost a life of a loved one...
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

  7. #22
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    Intervening in someone else's home certainly makes it a risky proposition from a legal and civil standpoint... Not intervening can cost a life of a loved one...
    Yep.
    Sometimes you're danged if you do and danged if you dont.
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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  8. #23
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    In this case the OP says the sister is out of the house because she arrived at your door black and blue. Now there is no longer an immediate threat unless he shows up here. To get "stuff" I agree that the police need to be involved, even if she will not press charges they may still help her by accompanying her or both of you to the house and temporarily taking the guy outside for a chat while you get stuff. As to premeditated murder I do not think you would qualify. There would be no planning or preparation. Since you always carry it would be normal that you would be armed, not special for this event. And if you go in with the weapon concealed and then are forced to defend yourself and or your sister a self defense argument could be made. I don't think it would be successful and you would most likely end up with murder 2 or manslaughter due to the heat of the moment actions. Of course what do I know.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doubledown View Post
    In this case the OP says the sister is out of the house because she arrived at your door black and blue. Now there is no longer an immediate threat unless he shows up here. To get "stuff" I agree that the police need to be involved, even if she will not press charges they may still help her by accompanying her or both of you to the house and temporarily taking the guy outside for a chat while you get stuff. As to premeditated murder I do not think you would qualify. There would be no planning or preparation. Since you always carry it would be normal that you would be armed, not special for this event. And if you go in with the weapon concealed and then are forced to defend yourself and or your sister a self defense argument could be made. I don't think it would be successful and you would most likely end up with murder 2 or manslaughter due to the heat of the moment actions. Of course what do I know.
    you've got a new castle doctrine law... she moved in with him (his home, his lease)... You ain't going in without his permission... If you go in armed... if you force your way in... who's in the right..? Murder 2 or manslaughter... or dead and he's not to blame under castle doctrine?
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by BRTCP88 View Post
    Would a jury see this as murder or self-defense?
    I think it's really going to depend on how good the attorney representing you is.

    Before running over there to get her stuff, a person should perform some due diligence. Because of budget cuts, our sheriff's dept no longer does "standby to keep the peace" type calls.

    I think the best thing to do is have your sister call the police for the assault and start from there. If a restraining order is issued, the police may then be able to make arrangements for her to get her stuff. Or if he is arrested, you could quickly go by and get her stuff before he bonds out.

    These type of situations can become very volatile in short order. Especially if you've had prior altercations with the subject. Why risk getting involved in a situation you know beforehand that could end up in a nasty and deadly situation. Attempting to play "tough guy big brother" is best left for the movies.

    I would be very matter of fact about advising my sister how to proceed in getting her stuff back without a possible altercation. If she doesn't want to abide by a common sense and prudent approach to things, I'm not going to risk having my life ruined over her immature actions or reactions.

    I would certainly help her retrieve her stuff, if it's done in a way where the police are involved or there are other assurances he won't be present or a "hurry 'cause he might come home at anytime" type scenario.
    -Bark'n
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    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    Its not always that simple...especially when people you love are hurting and ask for your help. Any man worth his salt would do what he could to help.
    I see this happen enough to know what could happen if you choose to act or not act.
    There's always one who jumps in with the you-aren't-a-real-man-if-you-don't-do so-and-so bravado. Being a foolish brawler doesn't make any man "worth his salt".

    Have you ever dealt with a domestic situation? I have managed several as a military commander. They suck.

    You would be just as likely to defend your sister's honor only by having her fight you herself over your ham-fisted tactics saying she really loves the guy, and you're overreacting. Like the smart man above says, I don't let crazy people drive my bus. I may not be "worth my salt", but I am not a dope who gets roped into other people's issues - even a family member. If she's not willing to engage law enforcement and the courts, she's just using you.

    I've seen it many, many times.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    you've got a new castle doctrine law... she moved in with him (his home, his lease)... You ain't going in without his permission... If you go in armed... if you force your way in... who's in the right..? Murder 2 or manslaughter... or dead and he's not to blame under castle doctrine?
    I agree with you 100% this is not a place to be and forcible entry immediately makes you the criminal and a target for him under the law. I was only stating that I do not think the actions as stated in the OP rise to the level of murder 1, not that the lesser charges are much better. This is definitely one to sit out.

    And as to why the guy in the movie did not call the cops....IT WAS A MOVIE.

  13. #28
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    Have you ever dealt with a domestic situation?
    As a matter of fact, I have, and continue to do so.
    I'm not a military commander though...I'm just the one that drags them out kicking and screaming in cuffs.
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    As a matter of fact, I have, and continue to do so.
    I'm not a military commander though...I'm just the one that drags them out kicking and screaming in cuffs.
    OK - LEOs - always a different scenario for LEOs. I have posted here numerous times that I believe one of the rules on DC should be that LEOs MUST identify themselves as such in their avatar. LEOs play by a different set of rules than the average Joe Blow civilian concealed carrier. I have read numerous posts that had me scratching my head in wonderment, only to get the "ah-ha" moment when I discover the poster is a LEO.

  15. #30
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    Of course the Gold Standard here is call the LEOs.

    IF you choose to go with a riskier alternative plan, at least go when he is assumed to not be home. And bring lots of surly friends.

    Once I was listening to G Gordon Liddy on the radio. Someone called asking advice on what to do about a person who was harassing and threatening his father.

    His advise was awesome. Illegal and fraught with trouble but awesome, and more correct for a different era. "You and your 3 brothers go to this guy's house. Tell him that if doesn't leave Dad alone, you will beat him to within an inch of his life. If he doesn't stop, go beat him to within an inch of his life."

    Several years ago a friend of mine went to pick up his kids from his ex's house. Ex's husband was in a foul mood and became argumentative. During his tirade he shoved one of Rob's daughters to the floor. Rob swung one punch to the head, which rendered said Slimeball unconscious. Rob took off and EMS was called. Slimeball woke up in ICU and ended up being diagnosed with a minor brain bleed not requiring surgery and was discharged home a couple days later.

    Rob went straight home and prepared to get a visit from Johnny Law. When Slimeball woke up, Ex asked him if he was going to press charges. He declined, figuring he got what he deserved. Smart fella. Rob's nickname is now One Punch.
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

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