Swinging Baseball Bat at You = Deadly Force Threat?

[sgb]

Had it been me the shitbird with the bat would be taking a dirt nap.

[DefensiveCarry.com]

[Harryball]

Hmmmm, Pop, pop,pop,pop,pop.pop,pop,pop, reload. scan, access, more pops if necessary.

[tcox4freedom]

I have been hit with a bat.....it hurts...alot...

I concur.
I was doing security work at a club one night when one of my bouncers got into a pretty bad fight with a drunk patron. I got between them and turned to see my bouncer coming down with a bat aimed directly for this guys head. I went to tackle the 6'5" 350 pound bouncer; and knocked him back a few steps just as the bat landed across my back.

I couldn't walk well for a week & had bruises that lasted for months.

-

[Thunder71]

Point taken.. I just think a man with a bat don't deserve to be killed... that's why I threw the VERY hesitant to shoot in there. Would rather run my butt off or bean bag him... I think I'm still fairly fast n fit

You do realize one blow to the right area from a bat could kill you, right?

[Harryball]

You do realize one blow to the right area from a bat could kill you, right?

Exactly, good point

Either get in the game, or leave your gun at home people..

[Doubledown]

A bat may not sound scary to all but I coached little league for several years. At one "camp" we had 7 year olds just learning about the game and getting ready for coach pitched baseball rather than t-ball. These are tiny kids with tiny bats that may not even have the farce to break a car window. The other coach was demonstrating what soft toss will be like, he told the kid "don't swing the bat at the ball this is just to show the class" and repeated "don't swing the bat" at least 5 more times. I am sure you can see what is coming, the kid swings the bat. Misses the coach by an inch since he never trusts the kids but the follow through his the kids dad in the face, broke his nose and chipped a tooth. Man was that a lot of blood.

Some guy walks up to the car I am sitting in and starts busting the window right next to me, I am now fearing serious bodily harm. I would get out on the other side because sitting in the car waiting in an enclosed space with little room to move or counter is stupid. Gun is drawn and if he persists then he has chosen poorly.

Sitting in the car waiting for him to get through the windows to prove he is a threat is BS. I never tried this but I would wager that my 16 year old son with his bat shatters the passenger window on swing one and swing two the bat and the retained safety glass are inside the vehicle near where your head would be while seated in the passenger seat. I will have to look it up but I recall the WI S/D law specifically listing baseball bat (among other things) as an example of a deadly weapon justifying the use of deadly force.

[Bark'n]

If I had the keys, I'd drive off.

A baseball bat discussion came up a while back, and many advocated escalation of force (i.e. pepper spray first).

I was not of that mindset, and still am not. A baseball bat is lethal force that can turn you off like a switch. I will defend myself with lethal force.

Attempting to use pepper spray against a deadly weapon would not be escalation of the force being used against you.

A baseball bat being used as a weapon is no longer just a baseball bat. It has now become a deadly weapon, and deadly force would be an appropriate response.

To make it simple, if someone swings a baseball bat at me, I'm going to respond with deadly force.

[Doubledown]

Here is the layman description of WI self defense statute straight from their official CC training textbook.

Imminent Threat
The threat of death or great bodily harm must be “imminent.” Imminent means “about to happen.” In order for the danger to be imminent, the subject’s threat must meet all three of these criteria:
• Intent
• Weapon
• Delivery system
Intent is an indication that the subject intends to cause great bodily harm or death. Intent might be shown by acts, such as pointing a weapon at you or rushing at you with a knife, or may be verbal, such as stating they are going to kill you.
Weapon means that the person has a conventional or unconventional weapon capable of inflicting death or great bodily harm. Guns and knives are examples of conventional weapons. However, unconventional weapons such as baseball bats, chains, bricks, and broken bottles can also cause death. Some people can inflict death or great bodily harm with their hands or feet. For example, repeated kicks to the head are certainly capable of maiming or killing.
Delivery system means that the person has the ability to use the weapon to harm you. For example, a person with a knife 50 yards away on the other side of a high fence does not have the ability to use the weapon against you.

[Bullet1234]

He would have put me in a bad position,,,, to OLD to run ,,, and not fast.

Would prefer to be tried by 12 than carried by 6.

Of course if I had the key I would just ride to the nearest police station.

Of course you never move forward ,,,,, always retreat,,,, establishes you are trying to defuse the action ,,,,,

[oldcurmudgeo]

FLorida statute:
776.013 Home protection; use of deadly force; presumption of fear of death or great bodily harm.—(1) A person is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another when using defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another if:
(a) The person against whom the defensive force was used was in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or had unlawfully and forcibly entered, a dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle, or if that person had removed or was attempting to remove another against that person’s will from the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle; and
(b) The person who uses defensive force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry or unlawful and forcible act was occurring or had occurred.

Breaking the windows is pretty clear evidense of "forcible entry." What "reasonable person" would not think that this guy was trying to kill him or cause great bodily harm?

Neither your opinion or mine is worth crap.

What matters is what the DA in the jurisdiction in which this occurs thinks.


A hot shot DA out to make a name for himself or one who is anti gun will take the position that you have no idea the guy with the bat was intent on entering your vehicle and doing you harm until he actually reaches in, attempts to unlock the door or tells you that he is going to do harm to you.

He can argue that the guy was simply having a temper tantrum and wanted to break things.

There are all kinds of stories about people breaking out windshields and windows, headlights, jumping up and down on hoods, etc., that would make his case against you sound plausible.

Castle Law is quoted too many times in these discussions. Castle Law does not absolve one from proving that his life was in danger. One cannot, for instance, shoot the delivery boy because he opened your door to put a package inside.

[sgb]

Neither your opinion or mine is worth crap.

What matters is what the DA in the jurisdiction in which this occurs thinks.


A hot shot DA out to make a name for himself or one who is anti gun will take the position that you have no idea the guy with the bat was intent on entering your vehicle and doing you harm until he actually reaches in, attempts to unlock the door or tells you that he is going to do harm to you.

He can argue that the guy was simply having a temper tantrum and wanted to break things.

There are all kinds of stories about people breaking out windshields and windows, headlights, jumping up and down on hoods, etc., that would make his case against you sound plausible.

Castle Law is quoted too many times in these discussions. Castle Law does not absolve one from proving that his life was in danger. One cannot, for instance, shoot the delivery boy because he opened your door to put a package inside.

[Hopyard]

He would have put me in a bad position,,,, to OLD to run ,,, and not fast.

Would prefer to be tried by 12 than carried by 6.

Of course if I had the key I would just ride to the nearest police station.

Of course you never move forward ,,,,, always retreat,,,, establishes you are trying to defuse the action ,,,,,

The problem with that is if you can't outrun him you may become too close in to draw without getting thwacked. You may have to step in right on top of the dude to keep from being badly hurt, and then attempt some sort of H2H disarm/counter.

I think this is really a much trickier scenario than it appears. Forget some of the "gingerbread" of the hypothesized scenario. You have to take into account your ability to make safe distance/space/ and time to draw and fire, all the while being pressed, or you must otherwise physically counter. If you try to draw while being charged and swung at you are likely not going to get a shot off-- and you might very well get thwacked. You can't afford to concentrate on the shooting and ignore the bat.

It sounds goofy but your best bet might be to charge in (which defeats the momentum of the bat) and put the gun right into his chest. (DA revolver would be nice here).

For the athletically inclined (and the movie directors), drop, roll, and shoot upward, while the swung bat goes over you.

You all can send me my Oscar for Best Director c/o JD.

Seriously, its all about choreography. The moving end of a bat, pipe, belt buckle, isn't something you are going to be able to deal with unless you've rehearsed it a bunch of times in a gym or other form of training.

(Anyone else remember those old Cowboy movies where the Good Guy draws his gun and the Bad Guy swings a lariat that wraps around his hand? Then the Bad Guy drags the disarmed GG in back of a horse.
Don't want to be there? Run like h.... first, or charge in.)

[archer51]

Not waiting for strike 3. The minute he comes at me with a bat, he's OUT!!!

[DefConGun]

A bat is a deadly weapon and if he doesn't heed my command to stop then I will take action. It's not my fault he brought a bat to a gun fight.

[Sarisataka]

Like Bullet1234 I am too old (and broken) to run so fleeing on foot is a no-go.

My MA instructor told us, "In a knife fight, you will be cut," I will assume in a baseball bat fight, I will be hit. That is my logic for putting my legs towards my attacker; it will hurt like a mother, maybe send me to the ER for repairs, but likely will not incapacitate me. I may even get a lucky shot in-

OK now lets try the other plan. Go out to your vehicle, dress for the weather, don't forget your gun and sit in the passenger seat. Comfortable? Good- now as fast as you can get to the driver side and out or in position to drive off, I'll wait.

Back? How did that go? I will bet awkward and time consuming. Now did Barry and his bat keep whacking the passenger side or did he try to get in? Maybe he ran around to the driver side- now what?

Unless you are unusually limber and can move fast to distance, the only scenario I can see is prepare to take damage and fight back. You are being assaulted with a deadly weapon; the danger is imminent. Draw your weapon. If he breaks off and leaves, great call 911 otherwise remember don't shoot your own foot.