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Take your shot?

3K views 32 replies 13 participants last post by  Ring 
#1 · (Edited)
For those of us who would shoot a guy in the back, while he has a gun trained on a clerk, a loved one, what have you:

This is the target (in red, in the animation) you must guarantee hitting; from whatever your distance, whatever your angle, to assure that the BG does not squeeze off a round, through involuntary muscle contraction.

The only problem is; you cannot see the exact position of that target under all that ski mask, hair, scalp, bone.




This is why I like the "Travis Solution" originally linked by Mike1956 in another thread.

You don't have to yell :aargh4: at the BG and startle him... you don't have to risk trying to knock him off his feet, and having his accidental discharge hitting someone else in the vicinity.

Most likely, the BG is under the influence of adrenaline to some degree. It is possible that even if he is high on some other externally introduced chemical, the adrenaline will work in concert with or, to some degree, override the other chemical.

In either case BG is likely to suffer some tunnel vision, hearing occlusion, etc.. He will probably turn his whole body, gun hand included, off of the intended victim and towards you... between point "a" (victim) and point "b" (you) you can pull the danged trigger on the shot you've set up.

It is because of the adrenaline, and whatever background noise in the scene, that you are not giving up the element of surprise by calling out to the BG... If he doesn't know you're there in the first place, he isn't going to hear/see you un-holster, take aim, and wait for him to turn.


The "Travis Solution"

Thanks Mike! I had completely forgotten that scene in Taxi Driver!
 
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#2 ·
This is exactly what I was saying in my post in that thread. Anything but a perfect hit may result in muscle contraction which equals bad news.

I've run these drills in a precision rifle class as well as in shoot houses regularly with carbines and handguns. After the drill was over in the PR - hostage taker behind victim that would expose portion of head on occasion from 50 meters and most of us were using a semi auto 7.62x51 with a magnified optic - we went over how many of the hits would have been immediate incapacitation. It was something like 2 or 3 out of numerous shots from 14 shooters, all of us experienced with this type of drill and the weapon systems we used.
 
#3 ·
This is exactly what I was saying in my post in that thread. Anything but a perfect hit may result in muscle contraction which equals bad news.
Very true. At the same time that mere fact that you startle him while attempting to draw his aim away from the clerk could cause an involuntary muscle contraction on his part. A vehicle outside the store backfiring might have the same effect.
Nothing is certain.

Michael
 
#4 ·
I would argue that such noises are background sounds in most cases. But, calling out to him directs his attention. Yes, there's the chance that it would cause the same result as some startling noise or action, but far less likely to, IMO.
 
#5 ·
No way, all you have to do is use super hero tactical ninja powers and start center mass and work your way up to a head shot and everything will be OK. [\sarcasm]
 
#6 ·
I frequently tell other employees looking to take parts from equipment in my lab... "These are not the Droids you're looking for." It works about as well as my super ninja powers (but it does kinda freak 'em out a bit when I run up the wall and across the ceiling).

NOT.
 
#7 ·
So it's safe to assume a head shot with decent SD round will take BG down quickly but not without the possiblity of a reflexive action that may
result in him squeezing his trigger. Given this I too prefer the Travis solution.

I am wondering if there is any statistical data regarding this. Or any real life stories about what has happened in similar situations.
 
#8 ·
Just as an aside here....
  • Gabby Giffords suffered a head shot... She's on the mend... Apparently wacko boy didn't hit the MO... eh?
  • Bob Wodruff suffered traumatic brain injury, and is back at work...
Those are two that come to mind
 
#12 ·
you must guarantee hitting; from whatever your distance, whatever your angle, to assure that the BG does not squeeze off a round, through involuntary muscle contraction.
lets see...the BG has his back to you... he is not moving, you can relax and make a perfect shot with out getting your self shot, or.. distract him and now have to deal with a moving target that will be shooting back at you if you miss and diving for cover...




have you ever seen what a bullet will do to to a head?

a bullet is no a laser.. it will not make a clean hole to the target...

there is ZERO need to to hit the spot... a bullet passing threw the skull anywhere with in 2 to 4" of the target will obliterate the brain stem and cerebellum ...
 
#13 · (Edited)
lets see...the BG has his back to you... he is not moving, you can relax and make a perfect shot with out getting your self shot, or.. distract him and now have to deal with a moving target that will be shooting back at you if you miss and diving for cover...



have you ever seen what a bullet will do to to a head?

a bullet is no a laser.. it will not make a clean hole to the target...

there is ZERO need to to hit the spot... a bullet passing threw the skull anywhere with in 2 to 4" of the target will obliterate the brain stem and cerebellum ...
Okeee dokee!

Oh, BTW, I have seen what a bullet will do to a head... Most of America has too. The victim recently went to congress to cast her vote, was interviewed on national TV, and while struggling, is coming back...

I've also seen the results of a man without a helmet on a motorcycle, smash into a concrete wall, head first. And while not quite dead at the scene, he had all sorts of nerves firing his arms, feet, hands and so on... His brain was mostly left on the wall.

Perhaps your gun throws bullets through objects... not mine.

Oh, and ALSO... Virtually any shot to the skull is within 2-4 inches of the Medulla Oblongata. And does not guarantee a nerve stopping gelatinization of brain matter.

Better tweak that free ballistic calculator a bit...
 
#17 ·
I just shot a woodchuck, he was straight in front of me on a pile of logs (probly looking to chuck some wood) at 50 yards. 22 mag rifle aiming for his chest as he was on all fours with his head up to look around. As the trigger broke he must have heard or seen something cause his head dropped right into the path of the bullet. He flipped and rolled for about 20-30 seconds. I guarantee I hit his MO (if woodchucks have one) since when I walked over there was no head left and the bullet still continued the length of his body with the exit wound just in front of his left rear leg. I do not believe that any shot will be guaranteed to instantly incapacitate anyone. I know that I can make the shot on a paper BG at 25 feet, but add in random movements, head turns, and the stress and adrenaline and you have an almost guaranteed miss of the Magic Spot.
 
#24 ·
I just shot a woodchuck, he was straight in front of me on a pile of logs (probly looking to chuck some wood).......
That's pretty funny!
 
#18 ·
One of the problems with shooting at the back of the head with the BG between you and love one etc, is OVER PENETRATION AND YOUR OWN HAND KILLING OR WOUNDING YOUR LOVE ONE ETC.

Better to step off line 90* and shoot the BG in ear.
 
#22 ·
I shot a man from a couple inches away and missed the important part of his head by 4 or 5 inches. He DID NOT go down immediately with that shot.
 
#23 ·
Its a sucks doesnt it.....Never fun
 
#27 ·
Agree that's the only sure way, but it's not the only way.... depends upon entry point, ammo, etc. as well. There are other shots that will stop somone immediately and the only muscle reaction will be spasmatic reactions if any at all.
 
#30 ·
IMO, the 'tunnel vision' thing is no more or no less likely than the reflexive tightening of the trigger finger. I think it's a large risk to shoot and assume there will be no reflexive reaction and the same large risk to assume the tunnel vision.

I would base my actions on angle of shot and my belief at that moment if that attacker really means to shoot the clerk. My belief, how I read the situation, holds about as much water as betting on either reflex or tunnel vision....large risk.
 
#31 ·
So, you would take the shot, with BG's finger on the trigger, if you had angle? Which angle would be ideal? Based on which caliber (I assume 9mm because of your screen name only)?

How much movement/attention do we need on the part of the bad guy to give the clerk opportunity to duck and be out of the picture entirely?

Have you ever been under the effects of adrenaline? And if so, to what degree? There's a difference between adrenaline "Dump" and increased adrenaline in your system. I've "been there" with both. It's a marked difference.

I believe that any perp is likely to have some effects of it, to a greater or lesser degree, depending on his experience in these behaviors (high risk, fast paced; stop and robs or smash and grabs).

I don't believe that shooting a person with his finger on the trigger and attempting to direct his attention off the intended target are "a wash" regarding risk. It's only my opinion. But I am arguing for it. And have yet to see anyone with evidence that it's incorrect.
 
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