Take your shot?

Take your shot?

This is a discussion on Take your shot? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; For those of us who would shoot a guy in the back, while he has a gun trained on a clerk, a loved one, what ...

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Thread: Take your shot?

  1. #1
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Take your shot?

    For those of us who would shoot a guy in the back, while he has a gun trained on a clerk, a loved one, what have you:

    This is the target (in red, in the animation) you must guarantee hitting; from whatever your distance, whatever your angle, to assure that the BG does not squeeze off a round, through involuntary muscle contraction.

    The only problem is; you cannot see the exact position of that target under all that ski mask, hair, scalp, bone.




    This is why I like the "Travis Solution" originally linked by Mike1956 in another thread.

    You don't have to yell at the BG and startle him... you don't have to risk trying to knock him off his feet, and having his accidental discharge hitting someone else in the vicinity.

    Most likely, the BG is under the influence of adrenaline to some degree. It is possible that even if he is high on some other externally introduced chemical, the adrenaline will work in concert with or, to some degree, override the other chemical.

    In either case BG is likely to suffer some tunnel vision, hearing occlusion, etc.. He will probably turn his whole body, gun hand included, off of the intended victim and towards you... between point "a" (victim) and point "b" (you) you can pull the danged trigger on the shot you've set up.

    It is because of the adrenaline, and whatever background noise in the scene, that you are not giving up the element of surprise by calling out to the BG... If he doesn't know you're there in the first place, he isn't going to hear/see you un-holster, take aim, and wait for him to turn.


    The "Travis Solution"

    Thanks Mike! I had completely forgotten that scene in Taxi Driver!
    Last edited by oakchas; November 16th, 2011 at 01:47 PM. Reason: removed the embedded play of the clip for language
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  2. #2
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    This is exactly what I was saying in my post in that thread. Anything but a perfect hit may result in muscle contraction which equals bad news.

    I've run these drills in a precision rifle class as well as in shoot houses regularly with carbines and handguns. After the drill was over in the PR - hostage taker behind victim that would expose portion of head on occasion from 50 meters and most of us were using a semi auto 7.62x51 with a magnified optic - we went over how many of the hits would have been immediate incapacitation. It was something like 2 or 3 out of numerous shots from 14 shooters, all of us experienced with this type of drill and the weapon systems we used.
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

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    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    This is exactly what I was saying in my post in that thread. Anything but a perfect hit may result in muscle contraction which equals bad news.
    Very true. At the same time that mere fact that you startle him while attempting to draw his aim away from the clerk could cause an involuntary muscle contraction on his part. A vehicle outside the store backfiring might have the same effect.
    Nothing is certain.

    Michael

  4. #4
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlr1m View Post
    Very true. At the same time that mere fact that you startle him while attempting to draw his aim away from the clerk could cause an involuntary muscle contraction on his part. A vehicle outside the store backfiring might have the same effect.
    Nothing is certain.

    Michael
    I would argue that such noises are background sounds in most cases. But, calling out to him directs his attention. Yes, there's the chance that it would cause the same result as some startling noise or action, but far less likely to, IMO.
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    Senior Member Array bbqgrill's Avatar
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    No way, all you have to do is use super hero tactical ninja powers and start center mass and work your way up to a head shot and everything will be OK. [\sarcasm]
    "To believe that social reforms can eradicate evil altogether is to forget that evil is a protean creature, forever assuming a new shape when deprived of an old one." - SAT

    Never argue with an idiot - they'll bring you down to their level then beat you with experience.

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    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    I frequently tell other employees looking to take parts from equipment in my lab... "These are not the Droids you're looking for." It works about as well as my super ninja powers (but it does kinda freak 'em out a bit when I run up the wall and across the ceiling).

    NOT.
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    Member Array Ducmonster's Avatar
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    So it's safe to assume a head shot with decent SD round will take BG down quickly but not without the possiblity of a reflexive action that may
    result in him squeezing his trigger. Given this I too prefer the Travis solution.

    I am wondering if there is any statistical data regarding this. Or any real life stories about what has happened in similar situations.

  8. #8
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ducmonster View Post
    So it's safe to assume a head shot with decent SD round will take BG down quickly but not without the possiblity of a reflexive action that may
    result in him squeezing his trigger. Given this I too prefer the Travis solution.

    I am wondering if there is any statistical data regarding this. Or any real life stories about what has happened in similar situations.
    Just as an aside here....
    • Gabby Giffords suffered a head shot... She's on the mend... Apparently wacko boy didn't hit the MO... eh?
    • Bob Wodruff suffered traumatic brain injury, and is back at work...

    Those are two that come to mind
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  9. #9
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ducmonster View Post
    So it's safe to assume a head shot with decent SD round will take BG down quickly but not without the possiblity of a reflexive action that may
    result in him squeezing his trigger. Given this I too prefer the Travis solution.

    I am wondering if there is any statistical data regarding this. Or any real life stories about what has happened in similar situations.
    I don't know about any data, I've never searched for it though I will out of curiosity now. I do know many have survived a head shot due to the placement. I surely wouldn't want to take the chance if someone was holding a gun to the my wife's head. I'm sure there have been plenty of failed head-shot attempts in some other high strung countries.

    And yeah, it's pretty safe to assume that for the most part, in the context of a semi-well placed headshot with current high quality self defense ammo, but Id only say its a pretty sure bet he'll be out of the fight, not killed instantly. But, if we want absolute immediate incapacitation, we need to hit the spot highlighted above. I always have referred to it as the brain stem but there may be a more appropriate name. A hit to that area will cut off all communication from the brain to the body, immediately relaxing the muscles.

    Any area besides the brain stem will still likely take them out of the fight, but if his finger is on the trigger, it may result in a muscle twitch and a shot being fired. The area we'd be going for is if you feel the back of your head, where it bumps out then back in. From the front, we'd be looking at an rea the size of a playing card vertically placed with the top between your eyes and the bottom around your mouth. From the side, you'd be looking about ear canal level but back about a half inch or so.

    Now, the bullet involved will also play a huge part in this. If we're using 9mm Ranger T or HST, for example, we could be off by 1/2" or so and still make a decent hit. With 5.56 75gr TAP, we could be off as much as maybe 2" or more and the violent fragmentation and shock would destroy everything within 2" or so to each side of the bullets path, basically a 4" or 5" area starting less than 2" from entry.
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

  10. #10
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    While the Travis solution was rendered up a bit tongue-in-cheek, I could sincerely see no better way to solve the scenario.

  11. #11
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Well, tongue in cheek or not... It's what I've been advocating in a lot of these shoot 'em in the back threads... and I had forgotten the movie version...
    It fit perfectly! Thanks again!
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  12. #12
    Senior Member Array Ring's Avatar
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    you must guarantee hitting; from whatever your distance, whatever your angle, to assure that the BG does not squeeze off a round, through involuntary muscle contraction.
    lets see...the BG has his back to you... he is not moving, you can relax and make a perfect shot with out getting your self shot, or.. distract him and now have to deal with a moving target that will be shooting back at you if you miss and diving for cover...




    have you ever seen what a bullet will do to to a head?

    a bullet is no a laser.. it will not make a clean hole to the target...

    there is ZERO need to to hit the spot... a bullet passing threw the skull anywhere with in 2 to 4" of the target will obliterate the brain stem and cerebellum ...

  13. #13
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ring View Post
    lets see...the BG has his back to you... he is not moving, you can relax and make a perfect shot with out getting your self shot, or.. distract him and now have to deal with a moving target that will be shooting back at you if you miss and diving for cover...



    have you ever seen what a bullet will do to to a head?

    a bullet is no a laser.. it will not make a clean hole to the target...

    there is ZERO need to to hit the spot... a bullet passing threw the skull anywhere with in 2 to 4" of the target will obliterate the brain stem and cerebellum ...
    Okeee dokee!

    Oh, BTW, I have seen what a bullet will do to a head... Most of America has too. The victim recently went to congress to cast her vote, was interviewed on national TV, and while struggling, is coming back...

    I've also seen the results of a man without a helmet on a motorcycle, smash into a concrete wall, head first. And while not quite dead at the scene, he had all sorts of nerves firing his arms, feet, hands and so on... His brain was mostly left on the wall.

    Perhaps your gun throws bullets through objects... not mine.

    Oh, and ALSO... Virtually any shot to the skull is within 2-4 inches of the Medulla Oblongata. And does not guarantee a nerve stopping gelatinization of brain matter.

    Better tweak that free ballistic calculator a bit...
    Last edited by oakchas; November 17th, 2011 at 01:06 PM. Reason: to add Oh, and ALSO
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  14. #14
    Senior Member Array Ring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    Oh, BTW, I have seen what a bullet will do to a head... Most of America has too. The victim recently went to congress to cast her vote, was interviewed on national TV, and while struggling, is coming back...
    ahhh... she was shot with Winchester White Box FMJ 9mm... not really know for causing any extended damage,,, i local guy took 7 of these to the chest and still ran 75y before dropping dead on the curb after a failed robbery..

  15. #15
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ring View Post
    ahhh... she was shot with Winchester White Box FMJ 9mm... not really know for causing any extended damage,,, i local guy took 7 of these to the chest and still ran 75y before dropping dead on the curb after a failed robbery..
    So, without getting into caliber wars: What single BRAND/type of SD Ammunition would you recommend to guarantee totally destructive deadly stop in brain pan or chest; through any clothing (not body armor), in any weather, on any given day, in any normal carry gun, from .32 ACP thru .45, from less than 50 feet, in the hands of any permitted shooter... (and maybe before you broadcast it as the be-all/end all solution, let me know so that I can buy stock in the company... and you might want to warn them too, they'll want to tool up.)
    Rats!
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    I suppose

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