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Unarmed Aggressor

3K views 38 replies 24 participants last post by  muddy 
#1 ·
As far as I'm concerned, an aggressor with a weapon is a lethal attack. But, what about an unarmed aggressor?

I question whether I should allow anyone to engage me while I am carrying. I would not pull on anyone I feel I could manage, but I question what I should do if someone is my size or bigger.

Clearly, the first option is to avoid engagement. But, what if you are attacked physically while you have your weapon?

Do you defend yourself while armed? Or do you pull to avoid physical engagement to prevent the possibility of having your gun used on yourself?

Thoughts.
 
#9 ·
A good place to start is with Mas Ayoob's book "In the Gravest Extreme."

It's an easy read. Go through it once, then go back and pore slowly through the sections on "Ability, Opportunity and Jeopardy", and "Disparity of Force."

Then follow that up with professional training, such as the MAG-40 course, which concentrates more on the justifiable use of deadly force than actual shooting skills. Once you have that training under your belt, then pursue training in the fine points of fighting with a firearm.
 
#10 ·
ok, given the variables here I will make a few suggestion on what I would do under certain circumstances.

Ive had extensive training and would have a real hard time in court if I did draw my weapon when confronted by some one my size or smaller..now a bigger guy would be harder to justify...unless I firmly believe this guy will beat me to death or cause serious body damage. At that point where I feel my life is in danger IMHO you draw...remember you do not have to shoot if you draw, but if you do honestly feel threaten and you do fire shoot center mass. but either way I will have a LOT of explaining to do. There is no way, If you cant escape, that you should subject yourself to a beating...you dont know if this guy is jacked up on drugs or is a former cage fighting champion, or a returning soldier With extensive combat exp who is haveing a PTSD flash..in the latter it is a sad situation and but I still feel that if the guy is determined to pound a mud hole into you then you can draw, if he backs down great, if not and is still intent on breaking you in half then you should defend yourself.

But as I said, with my back ground I would have a rough go of it on a normal day, however I dislocated my knee last night in Jujitsu, so I am on crutches and cannot defend myself in a fight, so I will do my best to verbal judo my way out of it and if the aggressor still wants to shove one of my crutches up my 6..then yeah I draw,and hope its a police officer I know and have trained with shows up and that my lawyer is worth the money..

BTW I was winning when the knee went..just in case anybody wanted to know..lol but like all my post what I do my or may not be what is best for you...Good luck and I hope that situation never happens
 
#11 ·
It depends. My main concern is my weapon. If the person is unarmed and I have the chance I'm going to step back while reaching for my weapon. I'm going to tell him that I am carrying a weapon. IF he keeps coming at that I can only assume he is going to use my own weapon against me.

If i'm attacked by surprise I'm going to defend myself and my weapon at any cost.
 
#12 ·
Yes, I meant "The FORCE" as in Star Wars... Because of the vagueness of the original scenario. Now that we have more details...

Gasmitty's right, start with principles you can learn in The Gravest Extreme an out of print classic that should go back in print.... it is timeless.

If fleeing is not an option, and you are not trained in H2H, and you have some distance... OC spray is a good idea, if you carry it. Stun gun is a possibility...

If none of those tools are available... use your head. Literally. The upper part of the forehead is a near perfect dome (one of the strongest structures in nature). Use it against his face. Get your body behind it.

I'm assuming you are cornered, since fleeing is not an option.... If it has gotten to that point, your situational awareness is sorely lacking... And if he's that close, you may not be able to effectively draw and fire any way...

In any case if you prevail with the head butt, you are just as likely to need defense of the legal variety as you would had you used a gun.

I would also suggest you read the book The Gift of Fear by Gavin DeBecker... learn to use your 6th sense.

(not quite literally on the 6th sense, BTW.. but If things are getting "hinky" get out sooner rather than later.)

Also, in a situation like this, early on, before he's so close you are cornered, it's kind of a game of rock/paper/scissors. If you can surrepticiously show you are armed, without brandishing... it may be enough deterrent. Peace through superior firepower and all that...
 
#31 ·
Also, in a situation like this, early on, before he's so close you are cornered, it's kind of a game of rock/paper/scissors. If you can surrepticiously show you are armed, without brandishing... it may be enough deterrent. Peace through superior firepower and all that...
I would rather engage in H2H and get whipped than shoot someone who is just wanting to fight. My concern is how this might play out while having a weapon. I cannot know his range of possibilities. What if he finds it in the scuffle? He might use it claiming I was the threat with a weapon.

I Have always considered warning someone not to engage me, I have my concealed carry licence. I'm hoping they would get the message and disengage. If they preceded and claimed they would shove it up my arse, I would likely pull it and defend it and myself if he persists.
 
#13 ·
I have to agree (in respective order) with high pockets and tookerw1040 because (a) there are too many possiblities, (b) even with detailed and identical scenarios, no two situations, responses, and possible outcomes will ever be the same, and (c) you must always keep in mind that your use of deadly force will have to be convincingly explained later in a court of law that you were justifiably and imminently afraid for your life (or someone else's) and there was absolutely no other alternative by course of action or avoidance to pursue at the time.

It's easy for any of us to sit around and conjure up some hypothetical scenario and seek opinions on how the scenario should be handled and/or played out; but everyone's opinion may be totally right or totally wrong with the same scenario because I can promise that even the simplest of scenarios with completely identical factors will never be the same. Actions and/or inactions will always be different because different individuals and unknown circumstances will make the scenario often evolve in totally different directions in a single heartbeat.

While this relates to military action in a combat zone, the different possible outcomes to an identical scenario apply nonetheless to LE or civilian SD situations as well. This isn't highly complicated and has only one factor to consider instead of a whole grocery list......

You are cautiously walking into a burned-out jungle village after a major firefight, and there are many civilian casualties of collateral damage - most of whom you can't help or are beyond help. You see an unarmed little girl less than 12 years old sitting in front of a burned-out hut shivering and weeping hysterically. You use your best broken Vietnamese to say "do not be afraid, we will not hurt you".

Situation (a) - she raised her head holding one hand with the other that was missing three fingers and bleeding profusely - we doctored her up best we could, helped her find what was left of her family, and left them all the C-rations we could spare before moving on.

Situation (b) - she raised her head holding a grenade in her hand and pulled the pin - we cut her to ribbons with fire from three 16's before she could toss it, and all of us hit the ground.

Obviously, offering a can of C-rations to the grenade girl would have been fatal for all of us; and fragmenting the wounded girl would have unnessarily taken a life and had all parties concerned paying a heavy price in conscience and at an ensuing court-martial.

I apologize for making light of all the hypothetical scenarios I keep seeing presented because each and every one could have dozens of potential outcomes and courses of action that will always be different from the individuals involved and the fluid progression of their actions, actions of others, and changing circumstances that will continuously affect the decision and potential risk involved in choosing to use, or not use, deadly force with each passing split-second of the event's progression. What may have had the best outcome in one instance could easily have a totally different outcome with an identical scenario.

That's why it's impossible, futile, and foolish to plan or opinionate the proper (or improper) actions in even the most simple defensive scenario like it was an orchestrated offensive tactical maneuver because that's just not the way it is in reality when it comes to a shoot or don't shoot decision that you will have to fully justify later in court - or regret later in jail.
 
#14 ·
Well, as I do agree with you 100%. You must anaylize the situation, and develope it. In these hypothetical scenarios, it does give insights, and different views. Some of these threads could be hypothetical or they could be real time scenarios that people have experienced, and the poster could just want to see what other people would do at a certian point. With that you can learn diffrent ways to look at things. For example, in your scenario, the little girl might not have anything in her hands, and you give her the C rations. She gives one of you a hug, with a land mine stuck to her chest.... BOOM! now yes I know thats alittle over the top, but hear me out. Now with that being said. Should situation like that ever arise, maybe next time you will take a closer look for any potential "booby trap". But yes I do agree 100% that the smallest action between people in the identical scenario will change the out come. But the diffrent opinions give diffrent insights on how to view a given situation.

Not saying that you are wrong, not at all i agree with you, but it can give different ways to look at things. Learning from other peoples experiences, or thoughts, or views...
 
#15 ·
In a situation such as this couldn't the fact you are armed place you at a disadvantage in a fight? You would be in a position of not only protecting yourself from harm but retaining your weapon too. Your attention would be divided putting you at a disadvantage.

Michael
 
#16 ·
Unarmed aggressor, to some extent, is an oxymoron. People get knocked to the ground, hit their head and die (we just had one of these cases in SC--not even punches but a lot of pushing and shoving among a bunch of late night drinkers.) I agree with many that being CC carries a burden that would not exist if you did not carry the ability to kill someone. It would seem that if you can manage carrying a firearm and this scenario seems to be real for you, carrying a stun or pepper spray is nothing more than a spare mag and solves the problem. My first thought, however, always comes down to situational awareness (SA) and even, G-d forbid, retreat, apology or even kiss ass. Maybe I am fortunate and I have said this many times on forums---I am 70 years old (actually today) and I HAVE NEVER FOUND MYSELF IN ANY WHAT IFS WHATSOEVER. Personally, I think it has more to do with SA in every what shape and form. Easy for me to say, maybe, since my lifestyle is not and has never been in an environment where my social and business life have taken me to places that would be more prone to aggressive or illegal behaviour.
 
#28 ·
First, Happy Belated Birthday wishes. Second, although I'm closer to 70 than 20 and after 24 yrs in the Army my Knees and Ticker are worst for wear. I too rely more on my SA and if necessary Shot placement that Ninja skill sets. I never forget not to underestimate an potential enemy. As with many Vets and retirees, and those being disabled, your firearm whether used as a deterrent or ultimately shooting to save yourself from death or serious bodily harm is your only equalizer in many situations.

I enjoy this forum and the What-If situations. As a Former MP. when on patrol we would think out the what-If scenarios. It is always amazing how many like-minded people perceive a situation differently and respond to them.

Again Happy Birthday!
 
#17 ·
Unless they are just plain crazy, people become agressive for a reason. I would try my best to diffuse the situation, sincerely apologize even if no apology was deserved, be as humble as I had to be to stop the agression. I also have a one button hot key for the voice recorder on my cell phone. I would try to hit that as quickly into the confrontation as possible. I'd keep backing away and look for an opportunity to run. If pursued and I felt threatened by serious bodily injury, I would draw the gun and use it. I wouldn't reveal that I had it beforehand.

Hopefully, there would be enough on the recording to help me with the law.
 
#18 ·
I have to agree with High Pockets. Given the fact when I was about 35 years old, I felt like I could handle most any kind of threat. But now that my age has doubled, I still have the same desire to live, but with a broken down body, no longer able to physically function at it's peak performance, any threat today, would be handled as appropriately seen fit.
 
#19 ·
All i have to say is look at the Walla Walla ( believe thats how you spell it) incident in that washington park.... shot an unarmed aggressor nearly 2x his own age, in the leg. DA did not press charges, interesting story should look into it.
 
#20 ·
Avoid___move___change direction____change speed of travel____avoid.
I personaly would avoid until threat was "otherwise unavoidable".

If perceived threat follows and persists, yell (or command) : "STAY THE [ *insert expletive of choice*] AWAY FROM ME!!"
Scan and monitor for accomplices/additional threats.

If threat continues pursuit - access weapon.

"........Deadly force is justified ONLY when undertaken to prevent imminent and otherwise unavoidable danger of death or grave bodily harm to the innocent" _____Massad Ayoob
 
#22 ·
maat.......................... But, what about an unarmed aggressor?...................
What, EXACTLY, is this person doing to you that causes you to call him/her an 'aggressor'? .... please describe the 'aggressive' behavior.

The details matter very much. (see also Force Continuum).
There's a whole hell of a lot you better know before you resort to deadly force.
 
#25 ·
FL law says deadly force is okay to prevent death or serious bodily harm in a case of forcible felony and makes no exception as to whether a weapon is being used or not. Seeing as I'm not in this scenerio, I can't answer the question. But I will say--I intend to protect myself from death or serious bodily harmed from anything.
 
#26 ·
I'm an old man with several 'parts' removed...an unarmed dirtbag attacking me will get the same treatment as an armed dirtbag.
If he overwhelms me...he will have a weapon. So I'm giving him my weapon and ammo...ammo first!
 
#30 · (Edited)
Engage an unarmed aggressor using lethal force at your own risk.

The fact that you are not familiar with the intricacies of what disparity of force is, how it works in a lethal force encounter is not going to matter if the police and prosecutor decides to charge you with manslaughter or murder. In fact, what you don't know can really harm you.


It is incumbent on you to have a clear knowledge of the lethal force laws in your jurisdiction. It is incumbent on you to know and understand issues which may be mitigating factors in your decision to employ deadly force against an unarmed person.

When the smoke clears, and you're wearing handcuffs, the fact that you did not know there were no disparity of force issues to play in your favor won't mean anything to the arresting officers or prosecutor.

The world of carrying a gun for self protection is a world for level headed, intelligent, mature individuals who have both eyes wide open and vast amount of knowledge between their ears.

The minimal requirements of what each state requires to obtain a concealed carry permit is woefully inadequate in preparing anyone for the legal ramifications of carrying a gun and using it during the course of events. You pay a few bucks, have a background check, maybe attend a short inadequate class on gun safety and a smattering of law and they they cut you loose.

If you didn't realize you are really adequately prepared for what comes next, you may find yourself on the short end of the stick.

My best suggestion is to attend a course in lethal force by Massad Ayoob at your earliest opportunity. Popping into an internet forum hoping to pick up a few pointers here and there could be your biggest mistake.

Short of that, learn and study all you can find on the subject of Disparity of Force and how it applies in a lethal force encounter.

Should I Shoot Someone IF They Are Unarmed?

Good luck.
 
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#32 ·
I agree with everone that we should do everything possible to diffuse the situation without violence. I would gladly swallow my pride.

I'm remnded of a video recently posted here where an unarmed aggressor knocked out an older gentlemnen. What if you were minding your own business, an aggressor starts taunting you. You keep walking and he begins to follow. Your not sure of his full intentions. In the video, there were others which would give you reason to feel serious threat, but what about just an individual?

I personally, believe in stand my ground. I feel justified in informing the aggressor I am concealed carry. I might even put my hand on gun as a last warning before pulling. I'm not comfortable with the idea of H2H while having my weapon and feel the need to warn him I consider him a threat to taking and possibly using my weapon.
 
#34 ·
Maat, I wouldn't advocate telling anybody you have a permit... let alone an "enemy" or a potential enemy. While saying and surreptitiously displaying a close cousins, there may be a subtle difference. (I am the one who suggested displaying, but I'm sort of re-thinking that.)

I'm not gonna take a beating if I can help it... and while I agree wholeheartedly with what Bark'n said above (pg2)... Maas hisownself did in one instace, display a weapon... and it rather quickly de-fused the potential situation..

But, saying I've got a gun and I know how to use it (effectively, you are saying that if you announce)... could easily be considered escalation... where an "inadvertent" display of the firearm might not be considered so.

I see this as good reason to carry OC spray... though I don't.
 
#35 ·
Maat use common sense. but **** happens. Life is not fair.

Indiana: BG doesn't have weapon but is AGRESSOR; If fear of life or great fear of harm, most prosecutors is self defense. I would try shoot ground in front of feet as warning.

All situations different. A woman near by hysterically shouting gun. You did no wrong just point your gun to make Agressor retreat. Now police consider you guilty until you proven innocent. Which is to jail and the process.

Next same situation: You have witnesses, explain to police and go home.

Life is not fair.
 
#37 ·
Maat use common sense. but **** happens. Life is not fair.

... I would try shoot ground in front of feet as warning.
NO, NO, NO!

All situations different. A woman near by hysterically shouting gun. You did no wrong just point your gun to make Agressor retreat. Now police consider you guilty until you proven innocent. Which is to jail and the process.

Next same situation: You have witnesses, explain to police and go home.

Life is not fair.
"Life ain't fair..." True enough... Warning shots... Stupid waste of ammo and potential for loss of permit in most cases.

If you make me draw the dam thing, I'm gonna use it, on you. Or not use it at all... But I ain't gonna make you dance, I'm not gonna warn you with it or wound you... I will be justified if I use it on you... Yes, I could go to jail. But I'm reasonably certain if I shoot the thing, it's justified, and you're likely dead.

In the Gravest Extreme. Not Just Leave Me Alone.
 
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