Denny's Shootout - Houston

This is a discussion on Denny's Shootout - Houston within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Saturday Morning - 1 customer plus staff. Two armed bad guys with 1 armed customer (with CHL). Link Link 2 Would you intervene? Would you ...

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Thread: Denny's Shootout - Houston

  1. #1
    Member Array Bashful's Avatar
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    Denny's Shootout - Houston

    Saturday Morning - 1 customer plus staff. Two armed bad guys with 1 armed customer (with CHL).

    Link

    Link 2

    Would you intervene? Would you pursue the BG out the door and fire to stop them (remember, Texas has specific language in its laws allowing the use of deadly force to prevent the escape of a person who commits a felony)?

    The score...

    Robbery foiled... no apparent injuries... BG's got away... get a way vehicle (stolen) found later with bullet hole(s).
    Last edited by Bashful; November 26th, 2011 at 07:47 PM. Reason: repaired links
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  3. #2
    Senior Member Array sjones's Avatar
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    Unless I thought my life was in danger,I would be just a good witness or I thought they might shoot the clerk.

  4. #3
    Member Array Azchief's Avatar
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    links don't seem to be working for me.

  5. #4
    VIP Member Array searcher 45's Avatar
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    I believe I would in this case because there is no one else in the line of fire, and the BGs may well just shoot every one in the Dennys to get rid of witnesses.
    BkCo1 likes this.
    NOT LIVING IN FEAR, JUST READY!!!
    I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness,
    nor the arrow for its swiftness,
    nor the warrior for his glory.
    I love only that which they defend.
    -J.R.R. Tolkien

  6. #5
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    If I saw them entering, I would take cover and draw. Fire if necessary... before they brought to bear on the cashier/waitress... Pursuit and firing while pursuing gained nothing... and might have put others at risk... (know what is beyond the target).

    Pursuit, while drawn and ready may have gotten a plate number, unless they backed out (in Texas, no front plate required, IIRC). And would be the best hoped for...

    Hope they catch 'em.
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

  7. #6
    VIP Member Array searcher 45's Avatar
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    Texas requires a front and back plate.

    If these two BGs were to get away they may give up the life of crime due to so many CC out there.

    I say; good work to the CC in this case.
    NOT LIVING IN FEAR, JUST READY!!!
    I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness,
    nor the arrow for its swiftness,
    nor the warrior for his glory.
    I love only that which they defend.
    -J.R.R. Tolkien

  8. #7
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    Whether I would engage them or not depends on the circumstances. If I felt they might shoot to alleviate witnesses I would. If I didn't feel they were intent on shooting, I'd prepare myself and wait to see what their next move was. As far as chasing after them, no I wouldn't. I don't care if the law says it is OK to. Once they decide to flee, I'm not putting myself back in the line of fire by chasing after them.
    headhunter53 likes this.
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  9. #8
    VIP Member Array smolck's Avatar
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    Why aren't BG's smarter than this? How much cash does a Denny's have on hand at 6am? $20 maybe. Too bad the CCW holder missed, he needs shooting lessons.

  10. #9
    Member Array rjfleming's Avatar
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    While I certanly agree with intervening in the Denny's, I would definately NOT chase the villans out of the building. If you were to encounter the arriving police officers with a weapon in your hand a tragic incident could occure, both for you and for the Police Officer(s) responding to the "Man With A Gun" or the "Shots Fired" call. Remember the responding officers will have minimal information from dispatch and enough adereneline on board to blow their ear drums out.
    Bubbiesdad, JerryMac and smolck like this.

  11. #10
    VIP Member Array Eagleks's Avatar
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    More range time.

    As far as whether to draw / shoot or not, I wasn't there and don't know enough to 2nd guess them.
    I don't make jokes. I just watch the government and report the facts. --- Will Rogers ---
    Chief Justice John Roberts : "I don't see how you can read Heller and not take away from it the notion that the Second Amendment...was extremely important to the framers in their view of what liberty meant."

  12. #11
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    Wow, bad situation. Lots of ways to get people hurt. Glad all the good guys are safe. Should he have waited to see if l the bg's shot someone? No. Guess he made the right call.
    baren likes this.

  13. #12
    New Member Array RandallHurd's Avatar
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    Yeah, he needs more Range Time. But some times just the mere fact that someone is shooting at the BG is good enough to scare them off, after all no one got hurt.

    If I were there I would have taken my best shot at Hollywood Shots. I haven't missed a bullseye in a while. But all that practice I do is a little pricey for some, I'm glad I reload. But in this case the CCW did a good job,he was affective in this case.

  14. #13
    Senior Member Array GentlemanJim's Avatar
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    Denny's money is not something I would start a shootout over.

    Edited to add: I probably wouldn't have made a good witness either because I would have been leaving via the emergency exit.

    Regards,
    Happyguy :)
    Last edited by GentlemanJim; November 27th, 2011 at 05:15 PM.

  15. #14
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    This incident illustrates a couple of good points I think a lot of people really don't think about, or just don't accept that it will apply to them if they are in a similar situation.

    One point is that a lot of people assume they are going to be a crack shot "A" Number One marksman when they are in a real life shooting incident. Yet time and time again, there are documented cases of people standing face to face, both emptying their pistols and completely missing the other person standing at no more than arms length.

    Now that doesn't always happen, but I think the point is, that people tend to underestimate the level of stress they are actually going to be under when they do draw their gun and fire in real life.

    Think about it, moments ago this civilian ccw permit is sitting in Denny's enjoying his meal. His mind couldn't have been farther away from the fact that in mere moments he's going to be drawing his gun and trading shots with real life criminals. And what was the result? Apparently No One was hit in the exchange of gunfire. But, those bullets all went flying somewhere, and if one of your stray bullets make their way to an innocent person... Well, as they say, "There's a lawyer attached to every bullet that leaves your gun!"

    What do you think the actual distance between the parties shooting? Twenty feet? A little more? A little less? Do you actually train shooting your gun at least once a week? Do you actually train using live fire for realistic events, shooting from a barricade, kneeling, or other type of event? If you were in the position of the civilian ccw holder in this incident, are you absolutely certain, you would hit your target under the amount of stress you will really be in. Actually shooting at a live person who is going to shoot back at you.

    I try to shoot a lot under stress situations trying to simulate realistic conditions. And I shoot enough to know, that in real stress situations, I am not as accurate as when I'm standing on a static range shooting paper targets under the rules of most public gun ranges. I live in a rural area and shoot on private property where I am afforded the luxury of practicing realistic scenario's where I can fast draw from cover, perform rapid fire drills, shoot prone and from barricade positions and all that. I know of very few public ranges which allow any of that. I certainly can not afford to shoot once a week, week in and week out, month after month. I'm a pretty good shot, but I'm not a great shot. I know my limitations. Does everyone here, know their real limitations?

    I have a pretty firm set of rules of how I'm going to respond if I'm in a retail establishment like a convenience store, restaurant, or whatever when an armed robbery goes down. Those rules are always somewhat flexible to allow for the highly dynamic situation that an armed robbery typically unfolds, which allows me to think and respond on the fly, as the situation dictates. But for the most part, my rules stay pretty firm unless something pretty damn compelling happens to force me to deviate from my set playbook.

    The most likely thing I'm going to do is stand pat. Carefully move to some sort of cover or concealment, either draw or prepare to draw and observe what happens very carefully. My general rule is that I am not going to engage unless I am directly threatened or the bad guys start shooting people. If I were to act precipitously and issue a challenge, or start shooting first and miss my mark, and someone gets shot in the crossfire... my bullet, bad guys bullet, it doesn't matter to the victim who's bullet it was. All I know is that at that point, my direct intervention initiated a set of events which got someone hurt or killed. And when it all plays out in the end, I don't want to be the one on the hook for sharing culpability with the bad guys or financial liability to the victims or the estate of the victim.

    In other words, I'm playing it real cool and being a good witness, unless the bad guys initiate shooting people first or I am directly threatened by the bad guy.

    Again, those general rules are not set in stone. I can be flexible, but I try to stick to my game plan as close as reasonably possible.

    The ccw holder in this case who started shooting, didn't hit anyone, and pursued the bad guys out the door while still engaged is real lucky none of his stray rounds hit anyone who can hire a lawyer. It could have just as easily been a blood bath with lots of casualties.
    -Bark'n
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    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  16. #15
    Member Array baren's Avatar
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    Sounds like a Win-Win for Texas CHL carriers. Texas Law doesn't require the CHL carrier to be able to read the Minds of the BG's ... just their actions. Pulling the Gun while engaging in a felony is simple enough. The guy should be a honorary spokesman for CHL in Texas.
    At least he reacted to situation properly according to Texas CHL laws. I guess if he just took cover under table under until the BG's left, he might as well left his gun at home. I bet the BG's staked the place out for minute or two to know the head-count in Denny's. They might had time to look for the one and only customer, then he would have lost the element of surprise.

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