No-Knock warrant - Page 4

No-Knock warrant

This is a discussion on No-Knock warrant within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; There truly is NO WIN other than submitting, and paying they really are the real LEO’s. The only difference would be a secure harden sheltered ...

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Thread: No-Knock warrant

  1. #46
    VIP Member Array tns0038's Avatar
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    There truly is NO WIN other than submitting, and paying they really are the real LEO’s.

    The only difference would be a secure harden sheltered building on multi acres of land that is secure with high fencing and motion sensors, and armed security. I work in such a place… and we would have a standoff situation, until more intel was gathered.

    But a normal house without a panic room, much less an apartment, as much as I hate to admit it or think about it, we have no choice but to submit.

    “Resistance is feudal” comes to mind.


  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    Alarm systems, deadbolts, security cameras, security bars, and even landscaping whether inside or outside the home, are not devices designed to cause serious bodily harm or death. They are designed to make it more difficult for an unauthorized person to gain entry or to alert homeowners/authorities of an intrusion.

    The statutes say nothing about the device being inside or outside of the premisis or property. Creating trip falls, digging pits and camouflaging them, or altering ones home with the intention of causing serious injury or death would definately be a violation of 42.035 by my understanding.

    My understanding for the prohibition on a "device" being used to protect property that is designed to cause harm, is that the device can not determine what a persons intentions are, where a person should be able to. The device will be indiscriminant in its action regardless if it is your 90 yr old mother/grandmother or the neighbor kid who kicked his ball across your yard, or the criminal who really intends to steal your stuff. The device, if triggered/tripped will act automatically.
    Responding for discussion sake, not to really disagree:

    "Alarm systems, deadbolts, security cameras, security bars, and even landscaping whether inside or outside the home, are not devices designed to cause serious bodily harm or death. "

    Of these, alarms and security cameras won't slow down any action by determined BGs or by determined warrant servers. Alarms might add to the noise and to the confusion and perhaps make everything more unsafe; security cameras may record misdeeds, but they won't serve the purpose of slowing the action to provide time for a 911 call to sort things out.

    "My understanding for the prohibition on a "device" being used to protect property that is designed to cause harm, is that the device can not determine what a persons intentions are, "

    Its a matter of creativity. There are lots of things available which are multi-purpose and which can be used to protect property though they can not discriminate between GG and BG. The barbed wire I mentioned for the back yard is one such--assuming you really have an animal back there that needs confinement.

    A cactus garden or potted plants (can't recall the variety someone posted here elsewhere) could just be a garden under a window, inside or out.

    " Creating trip falls, digging pits and camouflaging them,"

    This really goes to issues of "intent."

    1) A hole being a device is a bit like ketchup being a vegetable.
    2) I have exactly this situation, hole covered with brush, on some property. It is not there to create a hazard for any purpose whatsoever, but because plumbing work (laying a few hundred feet of pipe) is being contemplated for the future. Meanwhile, much of it is covered with brush for esthetic reasons.

    There could be civil liability if a trespasser happened upon it, but I doubt that it meets the definition of "device" because "intent" is part of what we are talking about here. Read the statute as a whole, to get its full meaning. It isn't that you can't create a hazard, it is that you can't create an indiscriminate hazard for the purpose of protecting property.

    Now, the statute says, "PC 9.44. USE OF DEVICE TO PROTECT PROPERTY. The justification
    afforded by Sections 9.41 and 9.43 applies to the use of a device
    to protect land or tangible, movable property i
    f:"

    Is protecting a home from invasion protecting property, or is it protecting human life?

    And that's all the lawyer playing I'm going to do with this one. I put it up first tongue in cheek to poke a little fun at folks who go overboard, but it is worth discussing in the context of how to slow the action down to give time for that all important 911 call and inquiry about *** is actually going on.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
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  3. #48
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    One very small point that doesn't by any means resolve the question, but can kick things in your favor a couple of points: have clear street numbers on your house. These days, I'm amazed how many places, both business and homes, don't have street numbers. Best place to put them is on the frame of the front door, where they would be illuminated by the porch light at night. This could reduce the probability of the police picking the wrong house.

    Once they do kick the doors in, however, I agree with some other posters that you're sunk, especially if it's late at night. By the time you struggle to wake up, realize you're not dreaming, throw back the blankets, grab your glasses and acquire a functional amount of cognition, they'll be standing over your bed with their black rifles pointed at you. They can get floor plans from the county tax office, and will know exactly where you are and how to get there in a couple of seconds.

    On the other hand, a daytime kick-in would be difficult at my house. I have a small dog that goes berserk ANY time there's a vehicle in front of or approaching the front of the house, and there are numerous windows where I can easily see what's out there (i.e. a police cruiser or a low rider). Plus, I carry all the time. Daytime is a different story.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis1209 View Post
    This would be an excellent topic to your local newspapers "letters to the editor" and ask your local authorities official recommendations to such a topic.
    - Don't own any guns because guns are bad
    - Don't resist because resistance is bad
    - Roll over on your back and pee all over yourself
    Hopyard and Dadsnugun like this.
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  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by varob View Post
    You could have the never ending floor project that ran out of money right at the entry way. So your wife just threw a piece of vinyl over it so it didn't look so bad.
    You guys are crazy.

    Onto something more reasonable, I'm just going to get a moat and be done with it.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by DefConGun View Post
    You guys are crazy.

    Onto something more reasonable, I'm just going to get a moat and be done with it.
    No good without Piranhas and some crocks.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    No good without Piranhas and some crocks.
    There was a similar thread and someone had mentioned that goats make excellent yard security as they are very territorial and will react to an intruder by using their head.
    Edit: a reason for barbed wire? Except perhaps that the goat would eat it.

  8. #53
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    Ruark brings up an interesting point about the house being readily identifiable by prominent street numbers.

    For folks that actually do these types of warrants, or other warrant service. Do you look at the house numbers? Do you pay any attention to signs that hang at the front porch that say "The Smiths - Ron, Becky, and Ron Jr.". Would that raise any questions if the warrant was for Bill Jones for instance, or give the team any pause to double check the info that they have before doing the warrant service?

    Just one more question for this whole messy situation that may or may not help things.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by noway2 View Post
    There was a similar thread and someone had mentioned that goats make excellent yard security as they are very territorial and will react to an intruder by using their head.
    Edit: a reason for barbed wire? Except perhaps that the goat would eat it.
    I owned goats one time. Funny your post is number 52. Post number 53 immediately after is curiously enough by participant "Beans." One thing you learn a lot about when you have goats, is beans.

    Goat beans won't slow anyone down though they may make them slip and slide and regret the entry.

    My goats wouldn't eat the wire. They wouldn't eat much of anything unless you held it up from the ground for the spoiled little darlings.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
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  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    Ruark brings up an interesting point about the house being readily identifiable by prominent street numbers.

    For folks that actually do these types of warrants, or other warrant service. Do you look at the house numbers? Do you pay any attention to signs that hang at the front porch that say "The Smiths - Ron, Becky, and Ron Jr.". Would that raise any questions if the warrant was for Bill Jones for instance, or give the team any pause to double check the info that they have before doing the warrant service?

    Just one more question for this whole messy situation that may or may not help things.
    I have a few friends who have gone on these raids. The preparation and attention to details they have to go through is incredible. At least it seems that way in my discussions with them.
    The trouble is that things can and do go wrong.

    Michael

  11. #56
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    Originally Posted by noway2
    There was a similar thread and someone had mentioned that goats make excellent yard security as they are very territorial and will react to an intruder by using their head.
    Edit: a reason for barbed wire? Except perhaps that the goat would eat it.
    I'd go with geese. Very territorial and meaner than hell. Ours used to beat the crap out of the neighbors cats and chase the mailman out of the yard.

    Michael

  12. #57
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    Find something only the Police are likely to know, say the name of the head of the SWAT division. If you have a chance, yell out something like "Tell me who XXYYZZ is!" If you get the right answer, you have a very high probability of Police.

    Naaaah, there just isn't any good answer to this situation.

  13. #58
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    Have an uncle who was detective with NYPD, specifically doing drug busts. He is maybe 5'9", 150 lbs. Not very imposing. I asked how he was able to do these busts, and he told me, 'it is not just me alone. When 6 cops with guns barge in unannounced weapons drawn and pointing at you, screaming and yelling Police, get down, even the biggest methhead freezes and goes along with them'.

    If the police see a gun in your hand in this situation, there are 6 of them in vests with weapons, you either drop it or lots of lead is coming at you very quickly. You will not win. Why would you even try if you are innocent. Not many cases of 6 guys who can spend all the money to look like police, decked out just to rob your house of your flat screen!
    Secret Spuk likes this.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by boatman View Post
    Have an uncle who was detective with NYPD, specifically doing drug busts. He is maybe 5'9", 150 lbs. Not very imposing. I asked how he was able to do these busts, and he told me, 'it is not just me alone. When 6 cops with guns barge in unannounced weapons drawn and pointing at you, screaming and yelling Police, get down, even the biggest methhead freezes and goes along with them'.

    If the police see a gun in your hand in this situation, there are 6 of them in vests with weapons, you either drop it or lots of lead is coming at you very quickly. You will not win. Why would you even try if you are innocent. Not many cases of 6 guys who can spend all the money to look like police, decked out just to rob your house of your flat screen!
    But some, decked out to look that way and not necessarily interested in just the TV.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

  15. #60
    JD
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    Hop,

    Regarding Iowa and traps:

    704.4 Defense of property.
    A person is justified in the use of reasonable force to prevent or terminate criminal interference with the person’s possession or other right in property. Nothing in this section authorizes the use of any spring gun or trap which is left unattended and unsupervised and which is placed for the purpose of preventing or terminating criminal interference with the possession of or other right in property.
    Nothing about occupancy.

    If you're in your bathroom etc., that "Trap" is unattended / unsupervised.

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