I shot an unarmed 16 year old--- kinda sorta

I shot an unarmed 16 year old--- kinda sorta

This is a discussion on I shot an unarmed 16 year old--- kinda sorta within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Role playing and MA/ SD scenario. I didn't know the full script. Felt it in my gut. It started with an interview. A kid who ...

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Thread: I shot an unarmed 16 year old--- kinda sorta

  1. #1
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    I shot an unarmed 16 year old--- kinda sorta

    Role playing and MA/ SD scenario. I didn't know the full script. Felt it in my gut.

    It started with an interview. A kid who I thought was 18 just asked for the time, politely. I looked at him and (for real) wasn't sure how old he was as I'd not met him before. (I did know he was part of the training session.) Asked him how old? He answered 16.

    Me: Where do you go to school?
    Him: Blah Blahh High School.
    Me: I've lived here a long time never heard of that, where is it?
    He: some bull answer.
    Me: (command voice) Why aren't you in school? {This part was unplanned dialogue and is probably about how it would go for me in the real world. I did suddenly want to know why he wasn't in school at 10 AM.}

    At that---

    He shoved me and we got into a standing shoving match with me pinning him against the fence. (This initial attack was planned for training, and not in actuality provoked by my demand to know why he wasn't in school. It just happened to work out that way. It had a very realistic feel to it as it happened.)

    I look over my shoulder and I'm being attacked by a 30 something with a knife. The kid was
    diverting my attention from what was going on in back of me.

    I turn and disarm my attacker, strike a blow and throw the knife away. Kid (who has been and is empty handed) starts to charge in to assist the second attacker. I wasn't expecting it to got that way though it is obviously what would occur in a real world ambush.

    Me: I pull and fire at the kid (toy gun).

    OK not all was role playing. The kid in fact is on probation, going to an alternative school which is why he was not in school--I didn't know that at the outset. My MA /SD instructor was baby sitting him in lieu of the kid being in class, but I didn't know that either. I didn't find out about that part until after. My MA Instructor was the second attacker with the knife.

    When the kid charged me I really felt like it was a real fight even though I knew it wasn't. He did momentarily scare me, and my reaction was to pull the toy training gun and "shoot" the kid. I was supposed to kick him off, and continue with combatives.

    Well, this scenario is not unrealistic. You could be walking in a park, or find yourself in a secluded place, and be set- up by an innocent looking kid who'd keep you busy while a more experienced and more vicious BG would set on you from behind. An ambush.

    So, here's the question. I really surprised myself when I pulled and fired the toy gun. I was supposed to kick him off and send a combative to his head. The kid charging at me felt real. My gut screamed, " two on one, they'll beat the s out of me."

    In the real world, Justified? Not Justified? Guilty? Not Guilty?

    If justified, how? On numbers disparity alone? On the immediately preceding fight over the knife which continued after the disarm? On disparity due to age difference as well? On the ongoing nature of the fight which had involved aggravated assault?

    If not justified-- kids age? bare hands? knife already thrown into the wood? No lethal weapon in play?

    The scenario started out as training for H2H responses, but in the heat of the moment I added the shooting quite reflexively without thinking, and might in real life too.

    As I drove home I began to wonder about whether "shooting" was right or wrong, and how the law might look at it. Heck, how the participants might look at it too.

    Any takers?
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  2. #2
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    I would say in Texas you would probably be good to go on that shoot.

    2 against one, with one person who had already used a deadly weapon against you.

    The threat was not stopped before you used your deadly force.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  3. #3
    Array SIXTO's Avatar
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    Disparity of force comes into play here...
    "Just blame Sixto"

    I reserve the right to make fun, point and laugh etc.

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    Thumbs up

    ^^^^I agree with ^^^^^^^^^^^

    These two.

    You could not have known if the "kid" did not have a hidden weapon, OR if he may have had another accomplice with him.
    I'd have probably shot as well.
    Spade115 and CountryGal like this.
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    Array msgt/ret's Avatar
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    I would go with disparity of force also, then there is also the possibility while one is keeping you occupied the other may retrieve the knife and continue the attack.
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    VIP Member Array Eagleks's Avatar
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    * What about your gun retention and with 2 on 1 , how long before you are seriously wounded, killed, incapacitated and / or lose control of your gun before you are shot with it.

    * You are fighting a life threatening event, if # 2 is still trying to stab you, and the other is "assisting" in the assault. He also assisted in the 'distraction', which if you end up dead he's just as guilty to murder.

    Preferrably the # 2 guy is toast, then deal with # 1 as the situation dictates.

    But, " he was such a nice young boy".
    Hopyard and Spade115 like this.
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    Distinguished Member Array DefConGun's Avatar
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    Good scenario, thanks for posting this experience. In most if not all of the scenarios I imagine, I never think about an ambush situation. Situational awareness is imperative to have but if you're distracted, you're SA is rendered useless in this kind of action.

    I would say that this scenario is an example of disparity of force but factors that might really swing it in your favor would have to do with your age and level of physical fitness. If you're a guy in your 50s and in average condition, I can't imagine anyone doubting your course of action. If on the other hand, however, you're a mid - late 20s combative trained Special Ops guy that is at the peak of his physical fitness, it might not be an open/shut case.

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    Distinguished Member Array RevolvingMag's Avatar
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    I am not a lawyer, nor have I ever pretended to be, but I would have to say 'good shoot' based on SC's self defense laws and simple disparity of force. There were two of them, and they had already attacked with a knife and there was no way to know if there were any other lethal weapons that could/would have come into play.

    So, I say 'bang bang', and live to tell the police about it.
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  10. #9
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Sixto is correct. Classic example. If you aren't for sure the first attacker is out of the equation, the second attacker is too much.
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    I agree with most of the above, plus I'll note the knife tossed to the side (after the disarm) might not be the only knife, and additional weapons may be presented. It all happened very fast, and when a 30 YO and 18 YO are attacking a 60+ YO there is a huge disparity - enough that a leveling force is understood. Leverage is leverage, so use what you have.
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  12. #11
    Member Array dragongtr's Avatar
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    I'm 30, two guys, uncontrolled weapon, possibly more....

    I'm shooting until I am sure neither can do me any harm.
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  13. #12
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  14. #13
    Distinguished Member Array DontTreadOnI's Avatar
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    Yup, you'd be happy with me on your jury.

  15. #14
    New Member Array goett047's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevolvingMag View Post
    I am not a lawyer, nor have I ever pretended to be, but I would have to say 'good shoot' based on SC's self defense laws and simple disparity of force. There were two of them, and they had already attacked with a knife and there was no way to know if there were any other lethal weapons that could/would have come into play.

    So, I say 'bang bang', and live to tell the police about it.
    You mean live to tell your lawyer about it.

  16. #15
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    According to Welcome to GeorgiaPacking.org

    Defense from a forcible felony; A person is justified in using threats or force to the degree they reasonably believe it is necessary to stop another person's imminent use of unlawful force. A person is justified in using deadly force which may harm or kill only if he or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent death or great bodily injury to himself or herself or a third person or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony (unless it is regarding defense of habitation, which has it's own requirements below). You are not justified if you were the aggressor or you are/were/on-the-way-to committing a felony. (The state has pre-empted local cities and counties from further restricting this defense.)(16-3-21)

    Looks like you would have been okay in Georgia as well.

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