Evaluate This Scenario. What Would You ?

Evaluate This Scenario. What Would You ?

This is a discussion on Evaluate This Scenario. What Would You ? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Disclaimer: This did not happen to me. It's taken from another forum. I'm posting it for viewing here...because it's obviously a real life event that ...

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  1. #1
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    Question Evaluate This Scenario. What Would You ?

    Disclaimer: This did not happen to me.
    It's taken from another forum.
    I'm posting it for viewing here...because it's obviously a real life event that actually happened to this guy.

    We hopefully always learn from others and their experiences.

    This one is decently easy to pick apart but, here it is anyway.

    Of Course. Chime right in on it.
    Civil Opinions are always welcome - novice and seasoned professional.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Weird incident last night - raises questions..what would you have done?

    OK, about 11:30 - midnight time frame, 3 of my dogs go crazy in the backyard barking.
    The back fence of my backyard is adjacent to a parking lot of a commercial building.
    After a couple of minutes of this barking, I realize that it's more intense barking than usual, and so I grab a flashlight and a pistol, place the pistol into my right front pocket of my shorts, and walk outside, and sit down in a chaise lounge chair right near the back door, up against the house, and watch.
    My dogs quit barking and come up to me looking for attention. Through the slots in the cedar fence, I can see that there is a security guard car with its headlights on, facing toward my fence, not 5 yards from the back of the fence.
    This is security for the commercial building.
    Then, a male voice says something, and the car screeches off at a high speed.
    Then, a couple of seconds later, a flashlight appears from the left rear corner of my yard, where the rear back privacy fence meets the neighbor's rear back chainlink fence, and our shared side chainlink fence in the middle.
    So this is some 13-15 yards away from me. Flashlight points and me and loud voice says "Let me see your hands!!"
    I assume of course that it is security or LEO, and turn my flashlight on, but don't point it at the person, and show my hands, while holding flashlight in my right hand with just thumb and forefinger, so remaining fingers are showing "nothing else" in my hands, other than the flashlight, to this person.
    Well, he quickly realizes that I am not the suspect he is looking for, of course - not dressed anything alike, etc. And I walk to him and quickly learn from him that he had just been in a scuffle/fight with a 'vagrant', right behind my back fence, who had started running when asked by the security guard what he was doing there; and the guy had apparently gone over the fence to my next door neighbor's backyard; his shoe was still on the ground there.
    Anyway, didn't find him, and no harm done, but this raises a couple of important issues.

    The first issue, which is pretty common I'm sure, is that this security guard failed to identify himself as security or LEO to me - all he said was "lemme see your hands!".
    And he should have IMO.
    But, he thought initially that I was the suspect he was looking for. And further, since I had seen the security guard car,
    I knew that he was likely security or leo with that combined with his authoritative order.
    But, he should have realized that a homeowner might come out to investigate dogs wildly barking.
    But, in any event, I can't keep some screwhead from shooting me when he ought not to - that's mostly out of my control.
    Plus, and this brings up the issue below, what's to keep a BG from lying and "identifying" himself as security or LEO?

    So, the major issue that has me wondering is "How do I know it's not a crook/home invader whose MO is to emulate LEOs by barking such LEO-type orders?", such as "lemme see your hands", in an authoritative way, in order to get compliance from a victim? Hell, all I saw was a flashlight - no uniform or anything.

    I'm sure that it's pretty RARE that a bad guy will use leo-emulating orders, but my question is, I suppose, is does anyone know of any documented case where a crook has used such a ruse to effect compliance/disarmament of their victim?
    For a moment I considered saying "lemme see YOUR hands, muthahumpa, and who the heck are you!?", while drawing my pistol.

    But as it was, I never even pulled my pistol out, and the security guard never saw it, I'm quite sure - nor did I see any reason to mention it, once we got to talking about the suspect he was looking for.
    Anyhow, this numbskull probably would have shot me had he seen me with a pistol and asked questions later, being the cowboy type that that building always employs.
    But, *that question* of numnut security agencies (and their liability for screwups for trigger-happiness) aside for the moment, what about this idea of crooks purpsosefully using leo commands.... "stop; police", etc., to gain control - ever happen?

    I have heard of documented cases where complete LEO impersonation occurs on out on the highway, in a fake car, with fake uniform, fake badge, in order to abduct women and such.
    But any documented cases at HOMES of burglarly/home invasion scenarios?

    Well, probably never should have stepped outside to begin with? But I was worried about my dogs.


  2. #2
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    First of all, I would not have just gone outside and sat in a chair by my door. That was this guys choice and that is fine.

    I would have taken my million power spot light and made sure what was on my property or the property that is visible from my back yard. With that kind of lighting no security gaurd would have mistaken you for any criminal, especially if you were sweeping the light over the property. Secondly, I would have made sure that the the security as it happened in this case or law enforcement if it was in another case, was actually one or the other, that is after making sure that no-one was on the inside of my property, I would have proceeded outside the property towards the vehicle and made myself know to them, with the light on and plainly visible. No security or law enforcement should mistake a million power spotlight for something that a criminal is using after an altercation. Granted, you don't want to point the light directly at the vehicle and blind the person, but you can surely let them know your there, if they are in a security, or police vehicle, you can be pretty sure that they belong there, although I guess there could be exceptions.

    You definately don't want to be walking around with a gun in your hand, regardless of whether it is a law enforcement or security person. Keeping the gun hidden but ready is most definately the way to go. If you do come across a criminal, the million power light will surely let you know if they are meaning any harm to you, ie. have a weapon visible or whatever, and a direct shine of the light to the eyes will most definately give you the upper hand, and the time it takes to get yourself safe or ready.

    If you live right next to the company my guess would be that you would be familiar with the uniform and cars used by the security, and whether or not they openly carry firearms or just have radios etc., just like you know what your neighbors look like and who they are.

    I have heard of times when people impersonated police with lights, uniforms etc, to pull over people and commit crimes, so I guess there is no way to be 100 percent sure, but you can be prepared.

    That is my take, I am sure the rest of you have lots of different things you would do.
    Last edited by farronwolf; August 16th, 2006 at 10:46 PM.
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  3. #3
    3sh
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    well I certainly would not have been sitting out in the yard in the dark. I think it would be better served to open a window from an upper floor (if multi-story) and have a look around and listen. Also why not let the dogs out into the yard, they will surely head to anyone that would be out there.

    I guess this guy didn't have any floodlights/motion lights in his backyard either... because those would have gone on asap if it were my own yard.

  4. #4
    Senior Member Array Packman73's Avatar
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    3sh nailed it. I would've let my pits out and waited inside from a vantage point with my XD.

  5. #5
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    If something funny is happening on the other side of my fence, I have no problem checking the property line, then sitting outside for a while to see what turns up. But, I do have a good view of almost the entire yard and alley from my chair and my back is to the house, so I can't be surprised from behind. Scratch on the mutt, listen to the sounds in the area. Obviously there wasn't anyone in the yard or the dog would have been on him.

    I can see how someone sitting in the back yard in the middle of the night under these circumstances would be suspicious, but since the yeller didn't identify himself as LE, not sure I would have complied at first. Can't say for sure in this case
    eschew obfuscation

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  6. #6
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    Note: It is difficult to read large amounts of text when it is in bold type.

    It would be better to post items such as this with normal text.

    Just thought I would let you know.

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  7. #7
    Distinguished Member Array Doc Holliday's Avatar
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    I am not going outside to investigate. I will stay in my home and stay vigilant. Going outside poses a few problems. First of all, low light conditions allow for a greater opportunity to be ambushed. The criminal has the night as an advantage. Also in low light conditions, I believe that you may be apt to misidentify someone and accidentally fire on them. Also, I have heard that if you go outside and something does happen, a prosecutor may try to paint the picture that you were looking for a fight instead of staying in the relative safety of your home.
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  8. #8
    Distinguished Member Array Doc Holliday's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PackerfanXD View Post
    3sh nailed it. I would've let my pits out and waited inside from a vantage point with my XD.
    I'm not trying to open this can of worms but.........

    What if your Pits decide to run down the road and attack some of your innocent neighbors? Your dogs should be under your constant care and supervision....just like your gun.
    Why Ike, whatever do you mean? Maybe poker's just not your game Ike. I know! Let's have a spelling contest!

  9. #9
    Distinguished Member Array lowflyer's Avatar
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    I got a 15 million candlepower spotlight for Christmas last year. I would have shined it in the security guard's face and yelled at him through my bullhorn to drop the weapon.

    Seriously, I would have stayed indoors and called LE. That's what they get paid for. Meanwhile I would have kept watch with my spotlight and Mr. Kimber both nearby.

  10. #10
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    I'll just add my main 2c - which is NOT to have gone outside at all! Get the best and most discrete vantage point possible, and that's all.

    I would still have flashlight and gun handy.

    I have to admit to in such situations, imagining if exposed, a huge uncertainty as who the ''voice'' might have eminated from - GG, BG, LEO - that is a tough call potentially.
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  11. #11
    VIP Member Array Ti Carry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3sh View Post
    well I certainly would not have been sitting out in the yard in the dark. I think it would be better served to open a window from an upper floor (if multi-story) and have a look around and listen. Also why not let the dogs out into the yard, they will surely head to anyone that would be out there.

    I guess this guy didn't have any floodlights/motion lights in his backyard either... because those would have gone on asap if it were my own yard.
    Quote Originally Posted by PackerfanXD View Post
    3sh nailed it. I would've let my pits out and waited inside from a vantage point with my XD.
    This is the first line of the story!

    OK, about 11:30 - midnight time frame, 3 of my dogs go crazy in the backyard barking.

    Dog's were already outside!

    I'd stay inside with shotty, dog inside also with me. No need getting my dog into a situation that could turn bad. If outside already as these dogs were, I watch from a vantage point until clear. Security guards have basicly ZERO training compared to LEO's so that right there for me would keep me indoors and LEO's usually don't need your help unless they are being assulted by the BG and you are able to help out.


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  12. #12
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    Iscurrier

    The bold is off for you Luke. Now you can read it.

  13. #13
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    The first issue, which is pretty common I'm sure, is that this security guard failed to identify himself as security or LEO to me - all he said was "lemme see your hands!". And he should have IMO.
    So, the major issue that has me wondering is "How do I know it's not a crook/home invader whose MO is to emulate LEOs by barking such LEO-type orders?", such as "lemme see your hands", in an authoritative way, in order to get compliance from a victim? Hell, all I saw was a flashlight - no uniform or anything.
    Well, probably never should have stepped outside to begin with? But I was worried about my dogs.
    Yup. That problem isn't often solved by the "solution" of exiting the house into unknown circumstances. Hunkering down in the darkened house would certainly be safer, for any number of reasons ... including getting shot by an overly-exhuberant rent-a-cop or LEO. In this case, it seems the security type guy was reasonably good, though he missed the ID element at the outset. Net effect: he avoided shooting first and asking questions later, as is all too often the case.

    What would I have done? Like many, I've grabbed the gun and light, exited the house, then searched. But that's long ago and far away. I haven't done that for a long while. And won't, given the alternatives. Last time this happened, I simply turned out the lights, sat down for a relaxer, then waited until the noices abated and the possible problem was over. At night, I find that far preferable to exiting the house into a situation where (a) I've got night blindness due to my interior lights, (b) the BG can see/hear me exit, (c) a security/LEO person can play the shoot-first game, etc. Older, wiser.
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  14. #14
    3sh
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ti Carry View Post
    This is the first line of the story!

    OK, about 11:30 - midnight time frame, 3 of my dogs go crazy in the backyard barking.

    Dog's were already outside!
    Ok, I see that now. But then he says he is sitting in the backyard, did he put the dogs away? Either way, still leave them out in the yard (not the neighborhood, he said it was fenced).

  15. #15
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    stay in

    I would prefer to stay inside, second floor if possible for a better
    view. In hand, flashlight, favorite gun, and phone. No need to get involved and get into it.

    JimB

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