How Many Consider the "No-Win" Scenario?

This is a discussion on How Many Consider the "No-Win" Scenario? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Ladies and Gents, I woke up with the idea that there may quite possibly be scenarios with no solution, and one stuck in my head. ...

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Thread: How Many Consider the "No-Win" Scenario?

  1. #1
    Senior Member Array Joshua M. Smith's Avatar
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    How Many Consider the "No-Win" Scenario?

    Ladies and Gents,

    I woke up with the idea that there may quite possibly be scenarios with no solution, and one stuck in my head. I just love the way my subconscious works

    Anyway, and I think I'll add this to my training props: You're walking down the street and, from down an alley (or whatever applies to you: your own barn and other outbuildings, garage, etc), you hear a child screaming, blatting his head off, as in extreme pain. There is no help in sight and though you've dialed 911, the crys are growing fainter.

    Do you investigate?

    If yes, you go into the alley/building and are confronted with real baddies, four of them, all armed with firearms and knives. Sickos.

    If no, the child dies.

    While I'm trying to figure out a way to build this scenario into a training situation (I'll need bullet stops on three sides), feel free to evaluate the scenario and come up with a solution. I realize most encounters are over in a few seconds, draw-and-fire types that don't even give you time to find cover, but there's always that one that's more complicated than Murphy had any right to make it.



    Josh <><

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  3. #2
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    Awe come on - let's have a difficult one huh

    Well, not easy at all - it'd seem like if the child sounds are desperate in the extreme then we have to investigate, after if time and signal - we have 911'd. But the ''how'' for that is where things really matter. Local environment - buildings, cover - so many things that would be variables.

    I'll use my popular ''get-out'' - which is ''play it as I see/evaluate it''.

    This could indeed be a no win - I have considered numerous potential no wins - and am sure they exist tho I sure hope to never find one.
    Chris - P95
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    Investigate, use available cover, be preemptive with gun in hand or hand at least on the gun holstered. If you investigate, you are "hunting". If you go hunting, be proactive like the hunters who wear badges.

    If you run into the 4 BG's harming the child, take steps to STOP their actions, whatever that may take. Stay tactical as much as possible. Cover, concealment, shoot straight, keep your powder dry and watch your back.

    Brownie
    The mind is the limiting factor

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    Distinguished Member Array dimmak's Avatar
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    Be hard to live with oneself after turning away from this....
    "Ray Nagin is a colossal disappointment" - NRA/ILA Executive Director Chris W. Cox.


    "...be water, my friend."

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    Senior Member Array PapaScout's Avatar
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    A child in distress plucks on the heart-strings of us all.

    Call me an old softy but I think I would call 911 and do what I could to help the child. Truly a no-win situation.

    How could I go home and face my wife and kids knowing that I turned my back on a child in mortal peril even if it likely meant my own death?

    +1 Chris - I hope to never find myself in a situation like this.

    Of course, I hope that my firearm never becomes more than just a security blanket regardless of the scenario.

    Ron
    "If you so much as bunny hop I'll cut your heart out!" Billy Bob Thornton in The Last Real Cowboys

    "I carry a gun for the same reason that I carry health insurance and a cell phone - be prepared."

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    I don't consider this a "no win" situation. The win comes from taking the BG's attention off the child to deal with you by interjecting.

    You should be able to find cover, announce presence and make them deal with you and forget the child. Or they may make the child a hostage, but then the child will be alive for the moment, which may not have been the case if you had not intervened.

    A no win situation is one where you think you can't survive, I tend not to think in those terms, but prefer to think I'll give them a run for their money, and may turn the tables on them through training, tactics and luck.

    Brownie
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    The win comes from taking the BG's attention off the child to deal with you by interjecting.
    Critical thing here tho Brownie is - per Josh's original post - multiple BG's, all armed in some way!!

    One BG I can imagine ways to deal with - but several? Different ball game methinks, in particular if I am solo at the time, and no help available at all.!
    Chris - P95
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    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


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    Distinguished Member Array randytulsa2's Avatar
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    Ugly scene, Man.

    You gotta go investigate. When you find four sickos doing things that will end the child's life if you don't intervene, you shoot them.

    If the child's life will truly and clearly be taken if you don't intervene (you don't spell that one out much), no jury in MY jurisdiction will EVER convict you. What's more, no DA would prosecute the case (at least not against you- if one of the sickos lives, he might get charged.....)

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    My further thought here is going toward the luxury of hi-cap mags and at least one spare mag - lotta shootin may occur to survive.!!
    Chris - P95
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    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

  11. #10
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    P95Carry;

    4 to 1 is a bad thing always, but I would hesitate to be thinking it is a "no win" situation when I go into it. Stay positive in your thinking, get preemptive if possible, it could be 3 to 1 in a hurry before they have time to react to your presence.

    You have to get mad and ugly, not be the good guy, and take em out with prejudice. Training helps here, entry/proactive training really helps here in many ways.

    You heard the child. I took it that you could not see the problem from your location. That tells me I have the ability to get closer with stealth initially for some time, and get the jump on the four of them. Before they could react, it might be 2 to 1.

    Hicaps definately would be a plus here. Boarding house rules first though, me thinks.

    Brownie
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    Senior Member Array madmike's Avatar
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    If you are convinced it's a "no-win" situation, it is.

    You've beaten yourself from the get-go. There will always be the possibility of a real no-win engagement, but every situation is fluid and if you aren't ready to take advantage of whatever possibility presents itself, then you might as well stay home and clean your gun.

    In the scenario presented, I personally could not live with the tired old "stand by and be a good witness" approach. But that's just me.

    mm
    Political Correctness has now "evolved" into Political Cowardice.

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    Senior Member Array PapaScout's Avatar
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    My 5-shot snubbie would be virtually worthless in this scenario. The BHP would be better with 15+1 (thank you Mecgar) but regardless of training on our part - 1 against 4 are terrible odds.

    I have no illusions about my target acquisition prowess. All I could do would be to try and remain focused, do what needed to be done, and hope for the best.

    Of course, now the child is in the midst of a gun-fight and Murphy loves stray bullets.
    "If you so much as bunny hop I'll cut your heart out!" Billy Bob Thornton in The Last Real Cowboys

    "I carry a gun for the same reason that I carry health insurance and a cell phone - be prepared."

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    Distinguished Member Array 4my son's Avatar
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    I think all have brought up good points, while I have never been in a situation like this, I have to agree with AZQKR, if out of sight, 911, move in as quietly, and quickly as possible, leave the phone on the ground and line open, then initiate the Powel doctrine.

    Go in with a clear cut plan, and be merciless. Okay, I think that is a little Powel, with some Swartzkoff thrown in.

    As Chris said too, much depends on specifics of the scene, but I would have to put my self in the shoes of that Childs parents. As I have one of my own. I may or may not want to get involved in others people's business, but with a child screaming in shear terror, win or loose, you gots to go.
    "fundamental principle of American law that a government and its agents are under no general duty to provide public services, such as police protection, to any individual citizen." [Warren v. District of Columbia,(D.C. Ct. of Ap., 1981)]
    If I have to explain it, you wouldn't understand

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    Alley. One of your advantages in this scenerio is the alley you came in. If the BGs want to come after you they have to come down that alley, and you cannt be flanked while your there. That gives you space to go back and draw them towards you.

    If they will persue you the child is 'safe' (maybe bleeding out, but not geting hurt more). Now you have 4 determined (maybe) BGs after you, but your initial objective (save the kid as much as you can) has been accomplished. All that you have to do is survive till the LEOs get there.

    just my thoughs.
    AE

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    Distinguished Member Array SixBravo's Avatar
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    First point, you can run into a problem with them being possible LEO unless you actually see something that convinces you otherwise.

    I got a cinder pit not too far from where I live where I have actually practiced this scenario a few times, but usually with 3 targets. There is a door that I prop up and walk around it so I lose complete sight picture. In a range of 5-7 yards, with a lot of practice, I can usually land 9 shots into the three targets' COM in about 5-6 seconds. If I draw, its about an additional 2 seconds. On stationary targets, though. That's a biiiiiiiig difference.

    911 and get them your location ASAP, then leave the line open and move in. After that, I think your best bet here would be to actually be drawn when you turn the corner. Just a quick peek around it to visually ID your situation. Then come out hard. I would say a sidestep and then a low walk while prosecuting targets. Take out two and three if possible. I don't think its a good idea to get greedy in a situation like that and try and get all four before then can get you.

    After the 2nd/3rd target is down, move to cover, do an emergency reload, and then listen. Try to ident where your baddie went to, then fire and maneuver. Use suppressive fire if neccesary and then shoot from zero distance. Reload. After that, you will need to secure the weapons the other BG's had and then get the kid the hell out of there.

    I don't think I could leave a kid like that. I don't have a deathwish but for me its a "Do it or die trying" scenario. Its for situations like this that I carry 37 rounds for my H&K. I hope I never need it, but if I have to shoot I won't be caught short of ammo.
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