Choked from behind

This is a discussion on Choked from behind within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I had some dip stick try this in High School lo those many years ago. I was walking down a hall and this kid, whom ...

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  1. #46
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    I had some dip stick try this in High School lo those many years ago. I was walking down a hall and this kid, whom I really did not know, thought he would make a name for himself by besting a jock. His problems were 1) he had no technique and 2) he had to jump up to get his arm around my neck - his feet were off the floor. I simply walked backward into a square brick corner then did it again much more forcefully. As his grip loosened, I twirled around and he went flying, unfortunately for him, through a window.

    Fortunately for me, a teacher saw the whole thing and I was not punished. The other kid - he went to the hospital then juvi.

    Being much older and far more out of shape now, I have no idea how I would handle such an attack and a trained perp would probably get me, but I would try to get in a few licks on my way out.
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  3. #47
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    Though all the comments have been well intentioned, I would caution about the aftermath. If you, as advised by one person, stab him repeatedly in the groin, and he merely has tried to put a headlock on you, even if he's a proven BG, it really looks bad to a jury.

    So, without tempering the resolve to get free and not be choked (and then who knows what), consider that your response should be to 'stop the threat'. Remember, presumably the BG is unarmed (thus employing a choke). What seems logical, or dramatic in a forum discussion isn't always applicable to 'real life'
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  4. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speculator View Post
    Though all the comments have been well intentioned, I would caution about the aftermath. If you, as advised by one person, stab him repeatedly in the groin, and he merely has tried to put a headlock on you, even if he's a proven BG, it really looks bad to a jury.

    So, without tempering the resolve to get free and not be choked (and then who knows what), consider that your response should be to 'stop the threat'. Remember, presumably the BG is unarmed (thus employing a choke). What seems logical, or dramatic in a forum discussion isn't always applicable to 'real life'
    I would seriously consider moving to someplace much less tolerable to BG's.

    The choke hold described by the OP is definately a life threatening event. I don't think that anyone who responded with using a knife at the groin, face/head, or leg/arm said anything about continuing to cut up the BG after they were released from the hold.

    You do however have to get away from the hold before you can evaluate your next course of action.
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  5. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattInFla View Post
    Turn towards elbow (takes pressure off trachea), draw off side knife, start cutting any available skin that isn't mine.
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  6. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speculator View Post
    Though all the comments have been well intentioned, I would caution about the aftermath. If you, as advised by one person, stab him repeatedly in the groin, and he merely has tried to put a headlock on you, even if he's a proven BG, it really looks bad to a jury.

    So, without tempering the resolve to get free and not be choked (and then who knows what), consider that your response should be to 'stop the threat'. Remember, presumably the BG is unarmed (thus employing a choke). What seems logical, or dramatic in a forum discussion isn't always applicable to 'real life'
    A choke hold is a means of deadly force,. and will be met with the same.
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  7. #51
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    Truthfully, you could be "had".

    When I was 17, and I had learned some Judo from 2 blackbelts, knew wrestling, and boxing, and had been in my fair share of street fights. A friend of mine and I were double dating, and after a movie went to a Pizza Hut. A guy in the parking lot was beating the hell out of a woman in the parking lot. We had said while in the car, we were minimally going to call the police or do something to stop him. It was pretty bad. But, we wanted to get our dates inside.

    On our way in the door, I was behind Jim and commented to him .... "it takes a real ass to beat up on a woman". I knew there were 2-3 people about 5-6 ft behind me also heading inside. The next thing I knew, literally, I was in the middle of the parking lot and this guy had grabbed me from behind, had me in the air (since I was shorter) and choking me off. It was the guy's brother who had been behind me, and he took exception to my comment.

    I tried everything I knew to try , and the way he had me, I could not gouge his eyes, hit him the throat , get a hold on him anywhere, and couldn't grab him at all anywhere. He had me in a hold where I could do nothing. I even tried to back kick him in the testicles. I was going out, and was about to black out for good when suddenly, there was a big jolt (my friend punching him ) and he almost let go of me, and then another jolt, and he lost enough hold on me I got out from it. Once I was free, gagged for air and was more conscious, I then turned and was in pure fight mode, but my friend (6'10 1/2 " tall) was already pouncing him.

    But, 2 of his friends came running, and it was the 2 of us against 3 of them... they were in there mid-20's or a touch older. Some big strong boys. We won the fight, but it was a bloody mess. One of them lost an ear, another was cold-cocked and laying on a car hood with very few teeth left, and the other one.... a broken arm, etc. before it was all over. Police wanted to arrest us, I guess since we WON, but then everyone began telling them we were only defending ourselves and what happened, etc. (probably 60 witnesses and none of them ever helped). They discovered our ages, and arrested them on all types of things.

    Jump ahead.... a few years later , I met the brother of the woman I was going to marry, and guess who it was .... Yep, one of the guys we fought.

    Anyway, you may THINK you can do this or that, but if they have you good, you wont' be doing anything. And it is really surprising (it was to me) how fast you can get to the point of passing out. It's one reason I never ever let anyone be close behind me for any reason.

    Today, if the same thing happened, I'ld be pulling my gun.... and possibly dropping them right there. Because you can be out in seconds, and if they realize you pulled a gun, they can pop your neck or grab the gun from you or wrestle you for it . I wouldn't be choked off.... and I wouldn't give up my gun. If I had a knife (like I often do) , I'ld minimally be stabbing them in the leg or side or somewhere to get them to release me....

    Whatever you do, you won't have that long to do it if they are truly choking you off....... not just have you in a choke hold.
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  8. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eagleks View Post
    Truthfully, you could be "had".
    .
    .
    .
    Thanks for sharing that... BTW.. didja marry the gal?
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  9. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    If someone knows the proper technique, you are not going to get out of it. You are dead. Let's hope he is not a trained thug.
    True, but unless you're completely trashed out of your mind, a rear naked choke from standing should be the hardest thing to find yourself completely trapped in. If he's that good, you can easily lose anyway, but it shouldn't be from getting choked out from behind in the standing position.

    EDIT: Heh, I take it back in light of Eagleks's story.
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  10. #54
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    Too old for all that Martial Arts crap and "What If" stuff. "BANG" as many times as needed. Why I carry a weapon.

  11. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Old Anglo View Post
    Too old for all that Martial Arts crap and "What If" stuff. "BANG" as many times as needed. Why I carry a weapon.
    You have to be able to get to and deploy that weapon without having it yanked out of your hand and used against you.

    When it is up close like in this scenario, that is sometimes impossible to accomplish. When you are totally surprised, and when your attacker is within breath distance, you have to be able to make space and time for use of anything but what G-d put on
    your body in the first place.

    No one SD approach is useful across all possible attacks; not H2H, not knives, not pepper, not pistols, and not revolvers.
    Each has its place--- and its limitations.
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  12. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    You have to be able to get to and deploy that weapon without having it yanked out of your hand and used against you.

    When it is up close like in this scenario, that is sometimes impossible to accomplish. When you are totally surprised, and when your attacker is within breath distance, you have to be able to make space and time for use of anything but what G-d put on
    your body in the first place.

    No one SD approach is useful across all possible attacks; not H2H, not knives, not pepper, not pistols, and not revolvers.
    Each has its place--- and its limitations.
    \

    Respectfully Disagree. If you can get it out of my hand that means I`m dead and don`t need it any longer Period.

  13. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Old Anglo View Post
    \

    Respectfully Disagree. If you can get it out of my hand that means I`m dead and don`t need it any longer Period.
    Hope you never find out why I posted what I did in post 56.
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  14. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    You have to be able to get to and deploy that weapon without having it yanked out of your hand and used against you.
    This is definitely true, but in a choke hold, again, you have a slight advantage in that a GOOD choke hold requires two hands. The moment your attacker tries to take away your defensive tool of choice he will no longer be choking you and therefore give you more time and energy and freedom to respond.

    I knife is also harder to take away than a gun because of the nature of the beast and the fact that most exposed surfaces are cutting surfaces. Someone trying to take away a knife has a very high chance of having his fingers sliced to the bone.

    Yes, every defensive tool/technique has it's place and it's limitations but I must say I am surprised by the "You're screwed!" mentality that I'm seeing in a lot of the responses to this thread (and no, I'm not talking about you, Hopyard. ). There are a very limited amount of personal attacks that cannot be defended against but I do not believe a choke hold is one of them. I truly believe that if you are alive enough to realize you are in imminent danger you are alive enough to at least TRY to do something to defend against it. Thinking, "You're screwed" only sets you up to fulfill that prophecy. I'm not about ready to go down that easily.

    In my very lay opinion, I think the effective use of a gun in this scenario would be very hard to pull off well. It's a possibility but it would not be my first choice. I'd definitely try a knife before I pulled a gun. Guns are easier to take away and in that close of proximity have a higher rate of failure due to being forced out of battery or casings not ejecting properly due to clothing fowling up the action, etc. Not to mention you have to somehow get the gun pointed BEHIND you while you are practically blind and being choked to unconsciousness. You ALSO have to hit something vital enough to get him to let you go.

    Within the last month I have watched two police videos involving shots fired where a suspect was attacking an officer and the officer fired and hit the attacker but the attacker didn't even seem to notice. In one the attacker was shot three times, in another he was shot seven times and continued to fight. He eventually died but getting shot did nothing to take the immediate fight out of him.

    A gun is not the begin all and end all of defense... neither is a knife, of course, but in this situation I'm pretty sure a blade has the advantage.

    I'd much rather bury a knife in the guy's forearm and do a few pressure cuts wherever I found flesh and try for a few tendons and arteries along the way to his elbow... heck, why stop there.. I'll take the thing to his armpit if I can. There's a lot of important stuff up there. Even if he HAS fight left in him, if I cut something vital to him holding his grip he simply cannot physically continue to hold me and that is my immediate goal.

    I'm ALSO surprised by how many people seem to truly think they are somehow impervious to this kind of attack. No matter how good you think you are or how NINJA your situational awareness is, we all have moments of weakness that could allow for the worst to happen... including a choke hold. Having some kind of idea how to defend against the worst case is never a bad idea... this is why defensive techniques against these kinds of holds are taught in defensive classes.

    In both the H2H and defensive knife classes I've taken we covered not only choke holds but also fighting on your back with an attacker mounted on top of you. I'm sure if that scenario came up there would be at least a dozen people who would say, "If someone is on top of you, you've already failed."

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  15. #59
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    Lima,
    Good points. When grabbed by total surprise in this choke hold, most folks are going to instinctively raise their hands
    to the attackers in an attempt to either pluck the attacker's hands loose or gouge the eyes. Likely, neither will be successful especially if you are lifted off your feet per Glockman's post with the attacker's hips kicking you forward and upward.

    Your suggestion about going for a knife located on the front center of your belt is great--- provided that somehow one has
    prepared ahead of time to fight the reflexive attempt at a pluck. I think that reflex-like response is what is going to keep most folks from having a chance at getting to either a knife or a even a gun not pretty much carried IWB.

    My MA instructor is too small to lift me off my feet, but this choke is one scenario worth trying with a practice knife.
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