Choked from behind

This is a discussion on Choked from behind within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Good point Lima, but while on your back, if you know how to place the opponent in your guard position properly, he is a had ...

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  1. #61
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Good point Lima, but while on your back, if you know how to place the opponent in your guard position properly, he is a had lad.
    The problem here is the way we think of the attack. A two handed choke is usually not the attack on a woman, but an attemt to pull her backwards and on the ground for obvious reasons. An attack from the rear on a man by another man will be different.
    The only way to defeat an attack is to understand what is happening. For instance, if a man grabs another man by the lapel, it is easy to focus on that as the attack and waste time and energy to defeat that action, when actually, the attack is the fist from the opposite hand that follows.

    It is true, that a good rear choke is hard to obtain, but, it creates a circumstance where you are already playing catch up. And that's never a good place to be. Especially if they know about half of what they are doing.
    But, the first rule of fighting H2H is never give them your back. For a good reason indeed.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

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  3. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doghandler View Post
    Ah yes, garrote... I'd rather be in a terrible headlock anyday of the week than have someone come up behind me and knows what they are doing with that nasty stuff!

    Limatunes - in regards to your last post on how to get shots on your assailaint..... When you draw the weapon instead of rotating the muzzle in front of you toward your target your muzzle is rotated back toward your target one handed. You're basically making contact shots backwards from your hip area. Certainly not ideal as you and others have mentioned, I too would prefer a knife over the gun. However the gun has a MUCH better chance of being effective compared to some hammer fist or back kicks to the groin, back kicks to the knee, or elbows to the sternum IMHO.

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    I'll bet on this one becoming a legendary sleeper thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by limatunes View Post
    This is definitely true, but in a choke hold, again, you have a slight advantage in that a GOOD choke hold requires two hands. The moment your attacker tries to take away your defensive tool of choice he will no longer be choking you and therefore give you more time and energy and freedom to respond.
    .
    In other words, use the knife technique to make him break the hold, and finish the job once free with a handgun, assuming you can get to it quickly while gasping for air, effect the switcheroo from one weapon to the other, and get on target before you are run over. I dunno.

    @ Glockman, if slashing the hands with a knife allows you to break free, do you think the job should be finished with the knife?
    I don't like the idea of trying to make space and switch weapons but want to hear your thought on this.
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  6. #65
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    Very good thread, I'm glad I had a chance to look it over. The timing of this thread is also weird timing for me as well. I had a someone the other day behind me and I didn't know he was there. I was by my van fooling with my key fob, unlocking the door. When I started to move forward, I felt a slight resistance as if someone had a hold of me. After I turned around, I saw this kid that I know (about 15 yrs old) standing with a goofy smirk on his face. He said something like, "Hey, what's up?" I guess he thought it would be funny to sneak up behind me and grab me as a prank. I didn't really appreciate it very much given that I don't know this kid very well and am still not sure what his intentions were, etc. I'm also disappointed that my SA isn't any better than it is because I often make a conscience effort to develop it. The thing is, I saw this kid walking across the lawn in front the building (in which I was parked next to..) and I really didn't expect him to get behind me as fast as he did, etc. I think that's why he got the drop on me, I completely under-estimated the time it would take him to walk across the lawn and grab me from behind. From the way he was walking, I didn't expect him to walk my way, I assumed he was going in the building, etc. Its un-nerving at how fast all of these things can take place. We're all talking about SA and to be in a strategic position so that no one is ever behind you but some of these things happen so fast, you can have someone behind you before you're even aware of it; especially if its a planned attack...and from the scenarios we've been discussing, all of these attacks have been pre-meditated.

    Perhaps the good thing about my experience is that it has opened my eyes as to how fast things can take place. I did think to myself what my course of action would be if this ever happened to me again while in a public place. The only thing I could think of is that I would hurt whom ever thought about doing this to me but had no direct plan of action. I've been hearing a lot about groin gouges with a knife and that would surely be an effective blow with a knife but I'm kind of surprised that I never hear anyone say that they would stab a guy in the front thigh. I would think that the pain would be so excruciating that anyone would let go if they found a full-sized Griptilian in their leg. Also, I'm thinking that they might not be able to stand on this leg and force them to fall? Grant it if the BG still has a hold of you and the only thing has changed is that you're now on the ground, you haven't done much...so I guess I'm really banking on the pain being a big enough factor that he's going to let go?

    This thread has given me some things to think about and I'm going to make more of an effort to be prepared for this kind of attack.

  7. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by DefConGun View Post
    This thread has given me some things to think about and I'm going to make more of an effort to be prepared for this kind of attack.
    It did me. I never let anyone behind me. There have been times when someone was walking behind me and I would slow down or speed up, and they would match me.... I just stopped right where I was..... facing them, and told them quit playing games and go on by. I've had a couple (suspected they were sizing me up for a mugging) that wouldn't..... and I told them "You won't walk behind me and that's it bud, so go ahead or we'll be here all night or we'll call 911 and get an officer here". I will turn in a check out lane so my back is to the candy/magazine rack. I have been told how "polite" I am , because I won't let someone go thru a door behind me, I'll let everyone by first if I have to. When in a crowd, I'll constantly change my stance, angle, position, etc.

    An officer (I knew him) was taking a report on things stolen out of some storage units, including mine, and talking to me. Some bozo was with him who kept swinging slowly around to be on my backside, and I kept changing my stance or position so he wasn't. Finally, I told this guy to "quit it ..... no one gets behind me for any reason". He tried to make fun of it and I looked at the LEO and told him put a leash on the guy or make him sit in the car.... then just backed up to the storage unit with my back against the wall and said "OK, talk". He knows the types I used to deal with, so he assumed it had to do with that and told the guy to go sit in the car.

    I think prevention and eliminating the opportunity is the first step.
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  8. #67
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    I'd be finding the attackers balls and squeezing, hard. They'll let go.

  9. #68
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    Hopyard, my thoughts are that the method or technique used by the attacker is going to tell me all I need to know, which will dictate my recourse.

    Two handed choke hold from the rear is weak. Tells me he is stupid or , if I was a woman, he is attempting to control me and put me on the ground, rather than kill me. I'm not worried about a two handed choke.

    The "shoulder pin" technique or one that crushes the airway, and dislocates the neck while elevating your body, even if not properly applied, is a serious threat, and it reads of an attack intended to be the final and not the precurser to something else.

    I think depending on size, sex of victim to the aggressor, and experience would justify certain weapons.

    If someone put me in a two handed rear choke, I would probably just beat their ass real good and that be that.

    If it was an in close choke using forearms on my neck, that would be a desperate situation, and then it's do whatever you can. If you do get out of it, you have to assume the person intended to kill you, so you would have to base your action on that.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  10. #69
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    Put your hands on me and I will react. This old fart is not into wrestling around any more.
    Years of wrestling in high school and college give me some advantage in muscle memory movement, but my body doesn't always move as the brain once remembers it was able to do. I'm lucky to get up stair without tripping...a great source of humor for the wife.
    If your hands/arms encompass my neck/head from behind, then Mr. Glock will quickly come out and visit your groan area.

    In one course taken, we did shoot targets that were close, but behind us...under the arm and next to the body. Seemed awkward, but it works.

    All these scenarios...I guess anything is possible.
    I really doubt that I'd be in a place (bar, alley, parking lot, dark street) where some dirtbag is going to wait for this old man to pass by so he can jump on me from behind to strangle me...jump out with a gun or knife, maybe, but that's another scenario.
    I am not thinking it couldn't happen, just can't see myself being in a place where it could happen. I would view any attempt to jump me as a life-threatening situation. After all, I'm already armed, and if taken down the dirtbag would then have a firearm. I will defend against such threats as I see fit.
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  11. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    Hopyard, my thoughts are that the method or technique used by the attacker is going to tell me all I need to know, which will dictate my recourse.

    Two handed choke hold from the rear is weak. Tells me he is stupid or , if I was a woman, he is attempting to control me and put me on the ground, rather than kill me. I'm not worried about a two handed choke.

    The "shoulder pin" technique or one that crushes the airway, and dislocates the neck while elevating your body, even if not properly applied, is a serious threat, and it reads of an attack intended to be the final and not the precurser to something else.

    I think depending on size, sex of victim to the aggressor, and experience would justify certain weapons.

    If someone put me in a two handed rear choke, I would probably just beat their ass real good and that be that.

    If it was an in close choke using forearms on my neck, that would be a desperate situation, and then it's do whatever you can. If you do get out of it, you have to assume the person intended to kill you, so you would have to base your action on that.
    Maybe we are not quite on the same page. Someone is using forearms to apply the naked choke from the rear. They have grasped their biceps and placed their palm on the back of your head--- in short, applied the deadly form of the attack.

    Somehow you manage to get a knife from the center front belt as described by Lima and cut them (doesn't matter where for our purposes) so that they loosen up and let you
    escape the choke.

    My question is, in the moment that the hands (forearm) comes off the neck is it best to finish the job with the knife or to try to back away, switch from knife to gun, to finish the job? I'm thinking that if your attacker hasn't chosen to run off the instant
    you got free the knife in the hand is a faster finishing tool than trying to switch to the gun.

    What I'm asking is whether you think it makes sense to try to change to the gun or not. (I know it all depends on lots of stuff but I'm asking about the timing and opportunity.)
    Last edited by Hopyard; December 17th, 2011 at 01:46 PM. Reason: spelling correction
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  12. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by retsupt99 View Post
    Put your hands on me and I will react. This old fart is not into wrestling around any more.
    Years of wrestling in high school and college give me some advantage in muscle memory movement, but my body doesn't always move as the brain once remembers it was able to do. I'm lucky to get up stair without tripping...a great source of humor for the wife.
    If your hands/arms encompass my neck/head from behind, then Mr. Glock will quickly come out and visit your groan area.

    In one course taken, we did shoot targets that were close, but behind us...under the arm and next to the body. Seemed awkward, but it works.

    All these scenarios...I guess anything is possible.
    I really doubt that I'd be in a place (bar, alley, parking lot, dark street) where some dirtbag is going to wait for this old man to pass by so he can jump on me from behind to strangle me...jump out with a gun or knife, maybe, but that's another scenario.
    I am not thinking it couldn't happen, just can't see myself being in a place where it could happen. I would view any attempt to jump me as a life-threatening situation. After all, I'm already armed, and if taken down the dirtbag would then have a firearm. I will defend against such threats as I see fit.
    I can't remember the name of it now, but I watched a officer survival tape back in the late 80's. The officer was threatened from the rear. He drew his weapon and fired one round rearward towards the ground and the BG's feet.(pretty sure this would be considered messing with the BG's OODA loop) While at the same time moving forward and pivoting into a better shooting position. The officer had just received some advance handgun training on his own dime, shortly before this incident.
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  13. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattInFla View Post
    Turn towards elbow (takes pressure off trachea), draw off side knife, start cutting any available skin that isn't mine.
    Takes pressure off trachea and possibly apply more pressure to carotid artery?
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  14. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by leathernuts View Post
    Takes pressure off trachea and possibly apply more pressure to carotid artery?
    The naked choke from the rear referred to in the initial post, and commented on by Glockman later, doesn't really
    work by attacking the trachea. Take a look at the video Lima put up. Great explanation/demo of it.

    If you want to attack the trachea from the back, jam a screwdriver in it, or thwack & crush it with a hard object in your hand. Or watch some old WWII movies where the boys just slipped up on the sentry and slit his throat. (I once met a Korean war vet who was quite proud of his abilities in this particular form of combat. Or, he was a liar. I was only about 14 then so I could not really tell. He claimed about 10 lives.)

    The naked choke using the forearm, applied appropriately with the palm of the left hand (assuming a lefty) on the back of the head, there's not much to be done about it; again per Glockman's comment; especially if they throw hips into it too.

    There was a great news story a couple of years back. Someone on a flight was causing lots of trouble and tried to
    grab the stewardess' wrists. She broke the hold on her wrists, maybe slammed him forward with some sort of arm bar, jumped up on the arm of a seat, dropped in back of the fool, and choked him out. He picked the wrong victim. She was into this stuff and quite proficient.
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  15. #74
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    My parents signed me up for judo lessons when I was 14, and I kept at it (in different martial arts systems) until about 10 years ago.
    (I got out after getting tired of being injured by guys half my age trying to prove how tough they were). I spent about 30 years of study in formal lessons, but never got a black belt (never stayed in one system for more than a year), although I got to explore most of the asian systems.

    The reason there are no samurai today is due to firearms. I like firearms for just that reason.

    There is a choke hold in judo and jujitsu called hadaka jime that is supposed to be impossible to exit, provided the choker knows what he is doing.
    I've used it myself in defensive situations, and it's my "go to" move when I can pull it off.

    That said, in competitive training I was taught that you can delay your losing consciousness by a second or two by tucking your chin as forcefully as you can (to allow better blood flow through the carotids), to execute what few moves you have.

    If you are carrying a handgun, and assuming you've practiced and the piece is ready to go, you have all the time you need to pull it, poke it behind you and pull the trigger as many times as you can. They will let go.

    A heel stomp will break an opponents foot. The testicle grab is often effective, but more due to the psychology of it rather than the actual damage.
    Eye gouges are tough with your enemy directly behind you, but if you're limber and strong you can do it.
    Throws are fairly easy to execute against an untrained assailant, and dropping to one knee starts the ball rolling (no pun intended).

    I know I could bring a sheath knife into play in the time before I black out, but I have my doubts about a folder, even an automatic.

    You guys sure spend a lot of time on the bad side of town.

  16. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blindeye View Post

    There is a choke hold in judo and jujitsu called hadaka jime that is supposed to be impossible to exit, provided the choker knows what he is doing.
    I've used it myself in defensive situations, and it's my "go to" move when I can pull it off.
    This is what we are discussing. In English, rear naked choke. Whatever you call it, in whatever form of training, it is taught in pretty much the way the video posted by Lima shows it.

    I think the really practical obstacle to pulling either a knife or a gun is that most folks are going to reflexively claw at the
    attackers hands, and if the attacker is doing what Glockman suggested, shoving the hip forward to lift, you're going to be busy trying to not get "hung." Under these circumstances it is pretty tough to go for a weapon on the waist because that is the opposite of what your instinct and reflexes want you to do.
    Last edited by Hopyard; December 17th, 2011 at 05:29 PM. Reason: spelling correction
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
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