Had to Draw on Someone Last Night - Page 9

Had to Draw on Someone Last Night

This is a discussion on Had to Draw on Someone Last Night within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by oakchas Better re-read with a different mindset.... think from a prosecutor's POV. And start with telling me how you can agressively do ...

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Thread: Had to Draw on Someone Last Night

  1. #121
    VIP Member Array Sticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    Better re-read with a different mindset.... think from a prosecutor's POV. And start with telling me how you can agressively do much of anything with a bicycle cross bar in your crotch with your feet planted on the ground...
    I can dismount/step off a bike about as fast as you can probably draw your pistol from concealment. Not that hard. Best think back to your youth experiences. All this and your are presuming the guy was on a 10 speed. Mountain bikes, and BMX bikes don't have the "cross" bar.

    And since you're heavy into this new castle doctrine of the OP's state... Imagine if you will; me standing outside your house door... you can see me through the peephole. If I "aggressively reach for the door knob" at what point is it legal for you to kill me dead? When I have reached the door knob? Before? After I turn it? Or, when I kick in the door because it was locked? Before I gain entry or after?
    Car door, House door....apples to oranges.
    Sticks

    Grasseater // Grass~eat~er noun, often attributive \ˈgras-ē-tər\
    A person who is incapable of independent thought; a person who is herd animal-like in behavior; one who cannot distinguish between right and wrong; a foolish person.
    See also Sheep


  2. #122
    Ex Member Array NYCrulesU's Avatar
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    Bottom line...she felt threatened by an approaching "aggressor". Drew her firearm and retreated to safety. All the while remaining in control of her firearm and vehicle...causing no harm or damage to anyone (or property).

    WELL DONE!


    Anyone that feels her actions were "wreckless" is a fool. Plain and simple. The rambo " stand your ground" replies are laughable at best. She had the means (car) to remove herself from the situation and used it.
    AZJD1968 likes this.

  3. #123
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sticks View Post
    I can dismount/step off a bike about as fast as you can probably draw your pistol from concealment. Not that hard. Best think back to your youth experiences. All this and your are presuming the guy was on a 10 speed. Mountain bikes, and BMX bikes don't have the "cross" bar.
    But not as qucik as I can back out of a situation in a vehicle already in reverse...and "reversing" as per the OP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sticks View Post
    Car door, House door....apples to oranges.
    Yep, house doors open in. Car doors don't, they open out.. pull on the handle as hard as you want... until it breaks, you still ain't gettin in. Especially if I'm accellerating in reverse.... And I got both hands on the wheel, and I got mirrors... and you got road rash....


    The devil's in the details... And there are lots of little details to nitpick on this one... but I still don't fault her.. I as much as said so. I'm all for the display or brandishing if need be, of a firearm, to make Mr. Hood Rat reconsider his options.
    NYCrulesU likes this.
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

  4. #124
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    ^^^^^^This^^^^^is food for thought, and really all I believe anyone is suggesting. I wasn't there, but, I have been in situation such as the one last year, where I was attacked by 2 men, one with a stick. I had a G26 IWB and never thought once about using it, as the situation did not call for it....at that time.

    Also, in the hood, it is perfectly normal for people to ride up to people they believe they may know. They, ( hood rats) have a different way of living that most may not understand.
    What may be unacceptable for us is the norm there.

    That's why it's important to stay cool.
    You handled that situation as you saw fit. You are a highly trained LE officer. Myself, I would not feel the same way about it, not even remotely. (I would consider it ludicrous if you did think I should handle it the same way you did) Perhaps the female OP wouldnt either, altho she is also well-trained as an MP I imagine.

    And it sounded like she did 'stay cool.'
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  5. #125
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    And since you're heavy into this new castle doctrine of the OP's state... Imagine if you will; me standing outside your house door... you can see me through the peephole. If I "aggressively reach for the door knob" at what point is it legal for you to kill me dead? When I have reached the door knob? Before? After I turn it? Or, when I kick in the door because it was locked? Before I gain entry or after?
    After 9 pages, people still need to be reminded that she didnt shoot? This is her scenario, let's not add to it.

    If she felt truly threatened and there was a chance he could get to her (reaching for door handle) then she was well within her rights to draw and be prepared.

    Not only that, it was successful and the aggressor retreated.

    Unless you believe she was lying, as a few people claim. I dont.

    After such a scare, I'd feel pretty darn good about sending him running too. Apparently other people in the thread can gloat about a skell being routed, but the victim cant.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  6. #126
    Ex Member Array gunther71's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TomEgun View Post
    Hi Gunther
    I'm very happy we here in NC had HB650 go through to be able to stand our ground but I think it may not always be the best option she choose what was right for her at the time and deployed her weapon as a deterrent instead of taking a life which is a very hard line to cross and not allot of people are prepared for that . Many here post on what they would do in that situation but until you have crossed that line as many of us here in the Military and law enforcement have it is a very hard thing to live with and not to be taken lightly . Even with the law in effect I would still try to defuse and evade the situation such as she did only to take a life as a last resort .
    Also by the way My Daughter goes to ECU in Greenville "Go Pirates" Keep Safe ! maybe I will run into some day :}
    Awesome, im going there now, working on Bachelors for criminal justice. go pirates

  7. #127
    Distinguished Member Array AZJD1968's Avatar
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    Please remember that SHE DROVE AWAY from him.
    Stop whining and go do something that makes a difference!
    If you think that I may be talking to you, then I am.

  8. #128
    Senior Member Array Dennis1209's Avatar
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    In Texas, many good ole folks drive around with Long Horn steer horns as front hood ornaments. Here in Tennessee we like the 250 lb. BG bicycle ornaments ourselves. We put the pedal to the metal, do a 360 and get the heck out of Dodge.

    WARNING: 250 lb. BG ornaments may cause paint and chrome damage. Use low pressure setting at local spray car wash and plenty of soap.

  9. #129
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    After 9 pages, people still need to be reminded that she didnt shoot? This is her scenario, let's not add to it.
    I know she didn't shoot... The side argument here is about castle doctrine and how it applies (started by somebody else).

    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    If she felt truly threatened and there was a chance he could get to her (reaching for door handle) then she was well within her rights to draw and be prepared.
    Within her rights...? Probably, but not always. In some jurisdictions that could be "menacing" (though this IS changing), and might depend entirely on who called 911 first.

    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    Not only that, it was successful and the aggressor retreated.
    Stopped aggression ("He saw the gun and froze."), did not retreat.

    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    Unless you believe she was lying, as a few people claim. I dont.
    Not lying, probably. And, I'm picking the story apart as would a DA, or your own defense attorney, preparing you for the stand (if he/she allows it).

    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    After such a scare, I'd feel pretty darn good about sending him running too. Apparently other people in the thread can gloat about a skell being routed, but the victim cant.
    I'm all for sending the yeggs running... or even leaving 'em standing there mouth agape. In the end of her story, who was doing the running, and who was "standing their ground?"

    She did okay. If trapped in traffic she would have been "more than right" drawing and displaying (she didn't point, remember). But in HER scenario, she was already "reversing" and "kept reversing" and then "drew the weapon" and then "backed up and made a u turn."

    Whole lot of reversing and backing up that could have been done at speed without messing with the gun and slowing down. And the end result would have been the same... She'd be out of the scene, and the skell, homeboy, hood rat, would have been left flatfooted astride his bike....

    In other words... The EXACT same outcome without the unnecessary addition of a handgun, though it did add a little of the spice we so enjoy here on DC.
    MadMac likes this.
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

  10. #130
    VIP Member Array Sticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    ...
    Whole lot of reversing and backing up that could have been done at speed without messing with the gun and slowing down. And the end result would have been the same... She'd be out of the scene, and the skell, homeboy, hood rat, would have been left flatfooted astride his bike....
    However, the "skell, homeboy, hood rat found out that pickings are getting slimmer and riskier. "That last mark pulled a gun on me, can you believe dat snit? What's this world comin' to, dog?"

    Either going to up his game, or find a new line of income that is less risky...presuming that his intent was indeed criminal.
    Sticks

    Grasseater // Grass~eat~er noun, often attributive \ˈgras-ē-tər\
    A person who is incapable of independent thought; a person who is herd animal-like in behavior; one who cannot distinguish between right and wrong; a foolish person.
    See also Sheep

  11. #131
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sticks View Post
    However, the "skell, homeboy, hood rat found out that pickings are getting slimmer and riskier. "That last mark pulled a gun on me, can you believe dat snit? What's this world comin' to, dog?"
    Tru Dat!
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

  12. #132
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    I know she didn't shoot... The side argument here is about castle doctrine and how it applies (started by somebody else).



    In other words... The EXACT same outcome without the unnecessary addition of a handgun, though it did add a little of the spice we so enjoy here on DC.
    The side argument has rather derailed the thread as some people cant seem to post without including it. Discussing her 'shooting' in the consequences is unnecessary (IMO).

    Again, you are picking things apart...as we all do I guess...and in each case...the opposite could be said as well. But she reacted 'as she read the situation."

    With that said, you ended with what is probably the most true thing I read in the thread. Quite probably: " The EXACT same outcome without the unnecessary addition of a handgun. "

    My point has been that because of how she read the threat, drawing was justified. That's all.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  13. #133
    Ex Member Array MadMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    My point has been that because of how she read the threat, drawing was justified. That's all.
    If the POSSIBLE assailant doesn't contact the police with her license plate to make a complaint, I guess all's well that ends well.

    That said, your statement about her judgment being the final arbiter of whether or not her actions are justified is not quite accurate. Many good people have been adjudicated and found guilty based on their reaction to exactly this type of situation.

    I am not sure if you were here when some guy came and posted that he was likely to be indicted for drawing on a guy who walked aggressively toward him wearing a tool belt after they had engaged in some mutual road rage activities. The big guy with the tool belt exited his truck after he followed this hapless dude into a fast food parking lot. He was royally upset with the twerp and as he made his mean-faced way over to the twerp's car, Mr CCW drew down on him and told him to stop.

    The poster typed up pages of justification on this board about disparity of force and the fact the guy was huge and had - gasp - hand tools that could have killed him. We never did hear how he made out in front of a jury. He never showed up after that little flurry of posting. I suspect as a minimum, he doesn't have his permit to carry any more.

    How you justify it to yourself may not be the way the law, the DA, and a jury would see it. That is the relevant discussion point. I certainly understand the OP felt herself justified.

  14. #134
    Member Array Billspider's Avatar
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    Utah recently changed its law to allow exactly what the OP did.

    76-10-506. Threatening with or using dangerous weapon in fight or quarrel.
    (1) As used in this section, "threatening manner" does not include:
    (a) the possession of a dangerous weapon, whether visible or concealed, without additional behavior
    which is threatening; or
    (b) informing another of the actor's possession of a deadly weapon in order to prevent what the actor
    reasonably perceives as a possible use of unlawful force by the other and the actor is not engaged in any
    activity described in Subsection 76-2-402(2)(a).
    (2) Except as otherwise provided in Section 76-2-402 and for those persons described in Section 76-
    10-503, a person who, in the presence of two or more persons, draws or exhibits a dangerous weapon in
    an angry and threatening manner or unlawfully uses a dangerous weapon in a fight or quarrel is guilty of
    a class A misdemeanor.
    (3) This section does not apply to a person who, reasonably believing the action to be necessary in
    compliance with Section 76-2-402, with purpose to prevent another's use of unlawful force:
    (a) threatens the use of a dangerous weapon; or
    (b) draws or exhibits a dangerous weapon.
    76-10-

  15. #135
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billspider View Post
    Utah recently changed its law to allow exactly what the OP did.

    76-10-506. Threatening with or using dangerous weapon in fight or quarrel.
    (1) As used in this section, "threatening manner" does not include:
    (a) the possession of a dangerous weapon, whether visible or concealed, without additional behavior
    which is threatening; or
    (b) informing another of the actor's possession of a deadly weapon in order to prevent what the actor
    reasonably perceives as a possible use of unlawful force by the other and the actor is not engaged in any
    activity described in Subsection 76-2-402(2)(a).
    (2) Except as otherwise provided in Section 76-2-402 and for those persons described in Section 76-
    10-503, a person who, in the presence of two or more persons, draws or exhibits a dangerous weapon in
    an angry and threatening manner or unlawfully uses a dangerous weapon in a fight or quarrel is guilty of
    a class A misdemeanor.
    (3) This section does not apply to a person who, reasonably believing the action to be necessary in
    compliance with Section 76-2-402, with purpose to prevent another's use of unlawful force:
    (a) threatens the use of a dangerous weapon; or
    (b) draws or exhibits a dangerous weapon.
    76-10-
    What unlawful force was the guy on the bike going to use? Is a hand on your door handle unlawful force? What are Utah's laws on unlawful force?

    So, I can draw down on a guy who grabs for my door handle because he thought my white Sierra crew cab was his white Sierra extended cab, parked in the next slot? I mean, he might have a gun, or it's possible he could be a serial Sierra invader? What's my justification?

    Castle Doctrine... Stand Your Ground... brandishing... display... laws... you best understand every nuance of those new laws (which in many cases are so new as to be untested, and you may be the "test case").

    According to John Lott and others, there are MANY times when a gun is displayed or drawn and the victimization process STOPS right there... I'm glad for that, and have even been the beneficiary of such action my ownself... That does not make it legally right... And in some cases; even under castle doctrine, stand your ground, et al... You may be prosecuted. that could result in loss of permit.

    Is it likely to happen that way? Probably not. But looking at what cc some experts like to call the "totality of the situation" It could very easily occur... especially without you playing the "first victim" on a 911 call...

    "I was riding my bike, and didn't see a car, almost hit it. and the crazy lady pointed a gun at me!" Don't I got the right of way over a car? I wasn't reaching for her door handle, I was trying to brace myself from falling after I wasn't paying attention and and almost hit her... I tried to get her to hear me yellin at her to aplogize... and she gotta gun outta nowhere and pointed at me. I was scared she was gonna kill me.... Jake and Slim over there seen the whole thing!"

    Crazy people with guns all over nowadays... bad enough we got them gangbangers packin' Now, you almost get into a axdent with some lady and she's gonna shoot you if you scratch her little nissan or whatever... better call da amberlamps, I'm gonna have a heart attack right here."
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

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