Short read on the dangers involved in intervening in someone else's situation - Page 2

Short read on the dangers involved in intervening in someone else's situation

This is a discussion on Short read on the dangers involved in intervening in someone else's situation within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by WillyNilly He sure made a good point. Getting involved when you don't know what's really going on seems a bad mistake. You ...

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Thread: Short read on the dangers involved in intervening in someone else's situation

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by WillyNilly View Post
    He sure made a good point. Getting involved when you don't know what's really going on seems a bad mistake. You cannot be a hero.

    I just wish good luck to the people while I'm looking out for number one.





    ^^^^^^I agree^^^^^^^^^


    With your statement about getting involved W/O knowing what in the wide world of sports is a'goin on.(To quote Slim Pickins)

    But, God love Evan Marshall, being from Mi. and all but........

    his article was written in 2002. prior to

    and with respect to Mi. law, {as well as some other states} as cited here:

    MCL 600.2922b, MCL 600.2922c, &
    MCL 777.21c
    The Self-Defense Act
    Effective October 1, 2006
    Public Acts 309 – 314 of 2006 comprise the “Self-Defense Act.” The Act affects criminal and civil liability for those who use force to defend themselves or others. Prior to this Act, the law of self-defense was gleaned primarily from the common law (judge-made law).
    General Provisions of the Act
    A person may use deadly force with no duty to retreat if (PA 309):
    1. They are not engaged in a crime
    2. They are in a place they have a legal right to be
    3. They honestly and reasonably believe deadly force is necessary
    4. The deadly force is used to prevent imminent death, great bodily harm, or sexual assault of the person or another
    A person may use force other than deadly force if (PA 309):
    1. They are not engaged in a crime
    2. They are in a place they have a legal right to be
    3. They honestly and reasonably believe force is necessary
    4. The force is used to prevent imminent unlawful force against the person or another

    Effect on the Common Law
    In circumstances not addressed in the Act, the common law of self-defense still applies with one exception: There is no longer a duty to retreat when a person is “in his or her own dwelling or within the curtilage of that dwelling.” This exception applies even in cases where the rest of the Act doesn’t apply (PA 313).

    Civil Liability
    A person who uses force in accordance with the Act is immune from civil liability for damages caused by the use of such force (PA 314). Additionally, courts must award attorney fees and costs to an individual who has been sued for using force and the court finds that the force was in accordance with the Act (PA 312).

    Criminal Liability
    Under the Act (PA 310), no crime has been committed when a person uses force as authorized. If a prosecutor believes that the force is not justified, he or she must provide evidence that the force used was not in accordance with the Act. Such evidence must be presented at the time of warrant issuance, preliminary examination, and trial.

    Effect on Law Enforcement
    The overall effect of the Act on police practice is minimal. Officers should still process suspected crime scenes as in the past. However, because of the duty imposed upon prosecutors by PA 310, officers should immediately consult with their prosecutor when investigating a case where self-defense has been claimed by the suspect or where the circumstances indicate that such a defense might be used at trial.
    In the absence of guidance from a prosecutor, officers should attempt to gather circumstantial or direct evidence that might show that use of force was unjustified, i.e., the circumstances listed in PA 309 did not exist.

    Will I rush in and begin shooting up the supposed BG in every situation?
    Nay Nay.
    Will I act given the totality of certain given situations.
    Maybe.
    I would rather die with good men than hide with cowards
    If you want to make God laugh, tell him your plans.
    Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedy."

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  2. #17
    Member Array WillyNilly's Avatar
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    Yes, I am aware of the law and I should act when others are in danger but was I justified? In situations that are cut and dried (robbery, rape) yes I probably would but most situations leave a big ? mark. What was the reason that someone is in serious problem?

    For example, a guy with a gun cornered a guy because he found out he molested/raped his child and I have to prevent a murder by shooting him. I shot the bad guy right?

  3. #18
    Member Array rangefinder's Avatar
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    Thanks for posting the article. It is though provoking.

    I carry primarily to protect my grandchildren and my wife.

    Every so often I wonder what I would do should I be in/near a situation. I can only hope that a situation like described in the article never happens or if it does I make the right decision.
    USN Retired

  4. #19
    Senior Member Array Dennis1209's Avatar
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    Yep, a wise person will take his experienced advice. Staying out of other's affairs has served me and my pocket book well for over five decades. With the advent of 911 and cell phones, the cops are just minutes away. Even as a good witness, you're going to spend time describing what you saw numerous times to LEO'S and court. Time and money you're never going to recover, and you didn't even tickle Betsy. JMO...

  5. #20
    Member Array Eaglebeak's Avatar
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    Great article, and it should be a mandatory read for all CC classes.

    I was in the military and took many lives while "intervening" on someone else's behalf because it was my job and ordered duty. I've also had to drop the hammer on a couple of BGs during my LE stint while "intervening" to enforce the law on someone else's behalf because that was also my job and ordered duty. However, as Joe Citizen with a CC, I now have no orders, assigned duty, or any obligation to intervene into anything that's none of my business because my only current obligation is to protect my life, the lives of my family, and my home. Everybody else who chooses not to carry for their own defense is simply going to have to rely on LE or the military because I've aready fulfilled my obligation to cover everyone's backsides.

    That may sound pretty cold and heartless; but, aside from the unbelievable legal ordeal that follows any shooting, I can promise everyone that there are no heroic thoughts, desirable publicity, self admiration, or warm and fuzzy feelings after taking a life because the face of each and every one at the moment of your bullet's impact will be burned into your mind for the rest of your life - and there will be many times that one of those faces will suddenly jolt you awake at night in a cold sweat.

    My intervention duties and obligations on anyone else's behalf are over and have been duly passed into the hands of those active military and LE personel who currently bear that obligated duty. I try not to get into "armchair quarterbacking" of everyone's hypothetical scenarios regarding situations not directly concerning me because my intervention into those will be limited to covering my weapon in defensive mode, taking up "drag position" behind my family as we get the hell away from what's going down, and calling 911 on my cell phone after we're at a safe distance.
    DocPMD and NYCrulesU like this.

  6. #21
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    A good article, but one must bear in mind that this is written by an LEO, someone who who routinely places himself in hazardous situations. To imply that anyone--other than an LEO--who elects to intervene on behalf of a third party is merely seeking fame and glory is a serious misjudgement of human nature.

    Would I intervene to protect/defend some unknown person? Maybe yes, maybe no. It all depends on the circumstances at the time. NO, I'm not chasing someone, who's already shot two people, into a store where he might grab a third victim. No, I'm not going to respond to a domestic 911 call and confront an angry wife. But some young thug beating down an old lady in a parking lot to steal her SS check? You might see this old dog step in see if I can convince the little thug of the error of his ways, at least in that circumstance.

    Is it my intent to be on the lookout for the opportunity to intervene? NO, it's my last intent, just as having to draw to protect myself is my last intent. But my firearm is there, and if I feel I have to use it to protect anyone, well, I just might.
    oneshot likes this.
    Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... Buffalo Springfield - For What It's Worth

  7. #22
    Senior Member Array adric22's Avatar
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    i read the article. While I agree with much of what he said, you do have to keep in mind that he was an LEO. He is going to be thrust into all kinds of situations that regular citizens like me just aren't going to encounter. For example, I am never going to be called to come to the aid of a domestic dispute of people I don't even know. I figure if I'm ever pulling my weapon to help another person it is going to be very cut and dry. For example, there's a gunman randomly killing people. Or I'm in a convenience store and a armed robbery takes place. etc, etc.
    Chad Rogers likes this.
    "Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws." -Plato

  8. #23
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    Outstanding read thanks for posting that.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  9. #24
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    Adric you have to think to you may not be called to the domestic dispute but it would not be unheard of for you to be thrust into the middle of it while standing in line at the local store.
    Domestics just dont happen at home so you have to be ready for the cut and dry situation to be not so cut and dry at that moment.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  10. #25
    Member Array Sharkman's Avatar
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    Great read and as stated above something every one that carrys should read .....
    Son remeber this and you will go far ........

    "The gunfight is in the head, not in the hands."
    +++++
    "God is Great... Beer is Good.... and People are Crazy"
    +++++

  11. #26
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    That's a really good article; and yes, being in law enforcement, he is/was going to be put in those situations on many, many more occasions than the 'average civilian', but there are lessons there that transcend occupational vs. civilian intervention.

    The most basic of those, in my opinion, isn't "think before you intervene" or even "this is what can happen"; I think the most important lesson to take away from that is "there are no clear cut situations", ever. That basic mindset had better be fully absorbed by all of us who CCW, because any intervention, no matter how absolutely justifiable it seems to us, can be twisted around and could cause hardship on us, and our families, after the fact. Even the most helpful state statutes won't protect you fully from litigation and even having your attorney's fees 'guaranteed' means very little in the real world because first you have to win in court, which means that all those attorney fees are going to come out of your pocket first. Then IF you win the suit against you, your legal bills will be awarded back in the court judgement; which will basically mean that you'll probably never see a dime of it back because the person who sues you probably won't have that degree of financial wherewithal. You might expect to see the $75,000 that you spent on your legal defense, paid back at $75-100 per month, but even my meager math skills tell me that it'll be a long time to get paid back. That person who sues you doesn't have to pass a credit check before they file against you and there are plenty of 'victim's' attorneys who will roll the dice and hope that you'll settle quickly, so they risk little if their client can't pay up-front.

    My internal view on the weapon I carry is that I will use without question under two conditions; either "I do this now or I die" or "I do this now or (insert family member's name here) dies". Beyond that, I just don't know... My first, and only real priority is to myself and my family, so I'd have to be pretty certain before I'd choose to act.
    Sharkman and DocPMD like this.

  12. #27
    VIP Member Array 357and40's Avatar
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    I especially liked:
    I carry a gun to protect myself and the people I love from the Monsters that roam the earth. When I’m away from those that mean everything to me, I carry so I can return to them.
    Thank you for posting that article!
    "I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched c-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhäuser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain."
    - Roy Batty

  13. #28
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    Great article.

    I carry to protect my family. That includes defending them using lethal force, if necessary. The way I see it, I wouldn't be protecting my family at all if I were to use lethal force to protect a total stranger and then ended up in jail or broke as a result. I wish that wasn't the current state of affairs in the USA, but it is.

    The only situation where I could envision coming to the aid of a total stranger would be where innocent children were in grave danger. They don't have the capability to defend themselves against the evil elements of our society. Other than that, the general public is on their own. They have the same options to find a way to protect themselves as I do. I've made my choice.

    Thanks again to the OP.
    Doc
    Last edited by DocPMD; December 19th, 2011 at 02:12 PM.

  14. #29
    Senior Member Array Chad Rogers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DocPMD View Post
    I carry to protect my family. That includes defending them using lethal force, if necessary. The way I see it, I wouldn't be protecting my family at all if I were to use lethal force to protect a total stranger and then ended up in jail or broke as a result.
    ^^^

    Now this is a man who gets it.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by oneshot View Post
    ^^^^^^I agree^^^^^^^^^

    But, God love Evan Marshall, being from Mi. and all but........

    his article was written in 2002. prior to

    and with respect to Mi. law, {as well as some other states} as cited here:

    MCL 600.2922b, MCL 600.2922c, &
    MCL 777.21c...
    Most of these laws are affirmative defenses, meaning....it's your defense in the lawsuit, and does not preclude the suit. So, after a year of attorneys fees and bills, and perhaps a trial, you prevail, and with a judgment for all the fees you have paid to your attorney against the party you saved - a party with shallow pockets full of holes.

    My family, me - that's who I protect. I'm not LEO, don't have the training, don't have the mindset, and don't have the skills that comes from years of experience. Yeah, I might save a stranger, or I might turn a bubble gum robbery into a 15 round shootout in which lots of strangers get killed, including me.

    And then I have a bunch of aggrieved families going after my estate that I planned to have to support my wife and kids.

    Gotta know your limits, both morally and economically.
    DocPMD likes this.

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