This is a discussion on confrontation within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Sorry Guys...
When out about in the world (same world where people get attacked and killed every day) you have to make quick decisions based ...
December 22nd, 2011 12:08 PM
When out about in the world (same world where people get attacked and killed every day) you have to make quick decisions based on the information available.
Sure, not every teenage male with sagging pants and wearing his hat sideways is a criminal, but a lot of criminals wear sagging pants with their hats turned sideways. Some people's appearance alone justifies a bump up in situational awareness.
The guy who attempted to rob me fit the bill. Scruffy looking black dude, hat pulled down low, wearing an over-sized Starter jacket on a night that was barely even cool... etc
Not saying that you should act out on that information immediately, just dial up the awareness a few notches and be ready.
December 22nd, 2011 12:15 PM
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and talks like a duck . . .
Originally Posted by suntzu
Are there exceptions? Of course. But in the context of SA when you literally have seconds to evaluate the situation, IMHO you would be foolish not to take into account the appearance of those around you.
Regarding this comment: "If the deciding factor is looks on drawing a weapon. . .", I never said anything about drawing. The OP didn't draw. My comments are in the context of SA. If someone looks suspicious to me, I will raise my state of readiness. Now whether that means getting a grip on my gun or not, as the OP did, I don't know.
And I do realize that all people are a potential threat. It's just not practical to treat everyone as a threat.
That's my opinion and I stand by it.
December 22nd, 2011 12:45 PM
There hasn't been to much comment on the OP making a call to the manager about the clerk possibly allowing his friends to hang out in the store and harrass customers, but the few that have commented have thought it was wrong for the OP to call. Here is my take on that, If the OP called and accurately explained what happend, and the manager realised that the clerk was indeed in violation of company policy, and the clerk knew he was, having been trained on proper work place rules, then it's not the OP's fault the kid got fired, it's the kids, and his friends. Granted there are a lot of assumptions there. Since it appears the kid was fired, it's possible this was not the first time that there has been such a complaint. I don't think most pointy haired bosses are going to fire an employee based on one customers hearsay complaint. That just causes an unemployment claim against the company that they have to pay, and requires the cost of hiring and training a replacement.
For the rest of the issues, he probably should find out exactly what the regulations are about carrying while off duty but in uniform. I can understand him wearing the uniform while travleing instead of changing into it once he gets to his job site since it was 50 miles from home, probably a half day assignment, and probably no locker room to change in, and no place to store his change of clothes other than his car.
Pocket carry without a holster, not my choice. I do often pocket carry, but I use a holster to protect the trigger of the gun. IF your going to pocket carry without a holster you better be sure you can safely remove the gun without shooting yourself or someone else.
Gripping the gun while telling the kid to back off, I see nothing wrong here. If your not planning on using the gun, if you feel that you can take on three possibly armed thugs by yourself bare handed than why would you even bother buying a gun. You could also just let their bullets bounce off your chest since your obviously from Krypton!
December 22nd, 2011 12:52 PM
Since he's a volunteer and not subject to the UCMJ, the uniform is no different than a Boy Scout uniform. There is nothing behind it. If he had to sign some kind of agreement or pledge to get this volunteer gig, then that should tell him what he needs to know.
Originally Posted by TedBeau
Since it's only a volunteer job, what does he care if they "fire" him if he has to defend himself with lethal force? How often does that happen? [Well, perhaps more than I assume based on all the people who freak out over a couple slackers shooting the breeze at the gas station.]
If I had to use my weapon to save my life and the Shallow Water Navy took their free uniform back, so what? I'd be happy I had my gun on me that day and was alive.
December 22nd, 2011 01:08 PM
I do stand corrected, I did not mean to say "draw" . I respect everybody's opinion but the threat was not presented by what the kid was wearing. This is my contention, anybody that puts their hand on their weapon because the environment caused their SA to go up a notch should not be carrying. Heightened SA makes you more focused on your surroundings (no threat yet exist) so you have the ability to PERCEIVE a threat. What people are wearing raises your SA, but there is no established threat. The threat if any, in this situation was not the comment the kid made nor what he was wearing but when somebody stepped forward. Once a threat is determined or perceived then you take appropriate actions, retreat, draw, put your hand on your weapon. I hope people see the difference. This is not meant to insult anybody but most people will have a heightened sense of SA in ghetto areas ect... You do not walk through those areas with your hand on the butt of your weapon. And I can tell you, walking through bad parts of town you will hear a lot worse and more threatening than what this gentleman heard. I never said don't raise your SA.
Originally Posted by DocPMD
But I really believe in this situation the gentleman overreacted, and does not know or understand the firearm rules of his employer. It does not mean he did not feel threatened. I believe he did. But if that is what it take him to react like that I do not know how he would react in a situation where it could be more dire.
And I know seconds do count. But you can't go around with your hand in your pocket ready to draw for every little day to day situations.
December 22nd, 2011 01:26 PM
Now we're on the same page. I agree.
Originally Posted by suntzu
Thanks for the clarification.
December 22nd, 2011 04:56 PM
Spot on about street smarts. Street smarts, common sense and self confidence go a very long way. Unfortunately it appears fewer folks learned/were taught them growing up. Too many carry and think their gun is their first line of defense. It amazes and shocks me.
Originally Posted by Sharkman
December 22nd, 2011 05:06 PM
I hear you guys in NYC make lousy salsa as well.
Originally Posted by NYCrulesU
December 22nd, 2011 05:42 PM
I guess it all boils down to how up close and personal it got and I can't judge anothers actions, but I am 72 and smart remarks I've heard them all but what I like to do is smile and look them in the eye,seems most know that I have danced before. As for pocket pistols, Mas does pocket carry and he is well versed in all types of carry but again training and more training
December 22nd, 2011 07:38 PM
I don't know, I only miss the pizza, winters and day games at Shea from NY & NJ. :) They can keep everything else. And I do mean everything lol. Besides deployments I spent my military time in Alabama, NC and Ga. Grew up for a bit in SC when I was a kid, lived in Va for a few years while I had business at Quantico and now live in Tennessee. I'm a medium rare steak for dinner and biscuits and gravy for breakfast kinda guy. lol That's why the intentiional dig at NY made me laugh so much. It was, as the kids say, a major FAIL. lmao
Originally Posted by MadMac
I will also rephrase, for the record, that I was referring to pocket carry WITHOUT a holster. I could have wrongly assumed that's what the OP was talking about.
I have zero problem with pocket carry with a proper holster. I do take issue with yahoos that just jam a pistol in the their pocket and think that is ok. I have a neighbor that does it. It is danger and irrisponsible.
Just wanted to clear that one up.
December 22nd, 2011 08:02 PM
What is not convayed in the OP's thread is the demeanor of the group and the individual who approched the OP. Depending on the attidude and demeanor I would had made some preventive measures. I would not have replied as the OP did though. I carry many ways depending on where and what I am going to do. Putting down pocket carry just shows your ignorance in defensive carry. Somebody on this forum appears to have a bad case of PMS.
December 23rd, 2011 09:49 PM
I take issue with this statement. I don't know what size you are Harryball, but I, much like the OP, am not a big guy. I am 5'8 and have been thought of as an easy mark by bigger fellows my whole life. Harry, have you ever heard of disparity of force? Well, it comes into play very regularly when you aren't a big guy. If I had a guy who was younger and larger advancing towards me, disparity of force is in play and if I thought I might be injured or killed by getting into a physical confrontation with this guy, then yes, the gun would be an appropriate recourse.
Originally Posted by Harryball
December 24th, 2011 04:15 AM
I posted earlier so I won't go through it all again, but I agree with Harrball. And if you read the post, the kid took only a step. I just think also that he over reacted and did not handle it well.
Originally Posted by TN_Mike
December 24th, 2011 11:29 AM
Originally Posted by Orange Boy
I think under the circumstances, the op did fine, except calling on the clerk.
As madmac said, making light of their comments could have had a possitive effect: maybe the OP wasn't in a joking mood at the time.
Oh, BTW, the Coast Guard rules.
I would rather die with good men than hide with cowards
If you want to make God laugh, tell him your plans.
"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedy."
M&Pc .357SIG, 2340Sigpro .357SIG
December 24th, 2011 12:18 PM
I invested in a Liquor store (My son 40 years old) and was not able to check on the place much. It went out of business and I found out the reason was several of his friends were hanging around the store all the time. I also checked with some of the long term customers that had stopped going and found that they were making people uncomfortable. You may want to say it was the customers fault but it cost him the business and me money. I agree with him calling the owner.
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