confrontation

confrontation

This is a discussion on confrontation within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I may have posted this a while back. If I did, please delete it. I may mention I am a older (was 55 then) and ...

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  1. #1
    Senior Member Array mastercapt's Avatar
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    confrontation

    I may have posted this a while back. If I did, please delete it.

    I may mention I am a older (was 55 then) and smaller man (5-7) and may appear to be an easy mark.

    A few years ago, I was active in Coast Guard Auxiliary and boating safety. I had to travel to a town about 50 miles away to do some stuff for them. I was in a full "working" uniform. My vehicle was low on fuel, so I stopped at a filling station about a mile from the house. I pumped the fuel and went inside to pay. There were three young men, whos style (and shabbyness) of dress said "trouble" loitering inside. They appeared to be friends with the young man behind the counter. When I walked in, one trurned toward me and said "Hey, Coast Guard, how many druggies did you bust today?" And one took a step toward me.
    I had my money in my left hand and my right went into the front pocket and wrapped around the grip on my Colt Mustang 380. My trigger finger was outside the trigger guard and the gun was condition 1, and ready to draw.
    I said, forcefully: "Hey, back off, my speciality is Search and Rescue, so why don't you get lost"
    They backed away, and I paid.
    After returning home, I got the area manager on the phone for that brand and had a talk with him, about how loiterers are allowed to "hang out". The young man who was behind the counter, wasn't there the next day.

    Now, heres the sticky part: As a volunteer, I am not authorized to be "armed". My state permit covers me, however, I was in a CG uniform. Get the picture? I would have had a lot of explaining to do if I had to use the gun.

    Since then:
    1. I do not travel in uniform
    2. I use a credit card for all fuel and don't go inside any station, unless I need something there.
    3. I have a greater S.A. once into a station, before putting in the card. A couple of times, something did not feel right, and my little voice said "Get the %^&* out of here, now. I have learned to listen to my little voice.
    4. At night, I don't stop at the small (read--7-11 size) stations. I go to larger, well lit stations.


  2. #2
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Did you feel that the gun was necessary in this situation. Based on what you have described, it doesnt appear that the gun would have been an appropriate solution.
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

    Never be ashamed of a scar. It simply means, that you were stronger than whatever tried to hurt you......

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    Since you were not preforming official duty when the event happened, being in uniform would not matter. Nothing in the military regulations that I know of stops you from legally carrying off station when off duty.
    oneshot likes this.
    Freedom doesn't come free. It is bought and paid for by the lives and blood of our men and women in uniform.

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  4. #4
    VIP Member Array SpencerB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by archer51 View Post
    Since you were not preforming official duty when the event happened, being in uniform would not matter. Nothing in the military regulations that I know of stops you from legally carrying off station when off duty.
    I agree I have carried in uniform many times, I would rather change and carry in civies but sometimes that's not possible

  5. #5
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    The gun may not have been necessary... but no harm in having your hand on it. The loiterer was advancing on you and had some buddies to back him up if he had gone further...

    But, if it had come to fisticuffs... well then, only you and a jury could decide if there was sufficient disparity of force...

    I got no problem with what you did, or that you were in uniform. Don't know what regs say about it.
    tcox4freedom likes this.
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

  6. #6
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    Auxiliary are civilians. UCMJ doesn't apply.
    __________________________________
    'Clinging to my guns and religion

  7. #7
    Member Array 1911srule's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    mastercaptain,
    In the past I'd dealt with the same dilemma about CCW to and from work while on active duty. I usually changed into uniform when I arrived at work. In your situation lets say it escalated and you had to use deadly force. Correct me if I'm wrong but you were not in a duty status until reaching your destination although in uniform. The military would not be involved so I think you'd have been ok in that regard. Each base has a weapons policy when you enter that installation. IE; check personally owned weapons into base armory or base security. If questioned about possessing a weapon just let them know you comply with those procedures. Since 911 base commanders seem to be enforcing those policies more than they had in the past.I would not want a random vehicle search on base to find a non declared weapon. Glad you were armed. Sounded like your verbal response stopped any aggression from the punks. You might consider a non lethal weapon like an ASP or LE grade pepper spray to carry as well. Nowadays it seems we are running into these types more frequently. Alone they are cowards, in packs watch out.You handled it fine imo...
    RIP Jeff Cooper

  8. #8
    Ex Member Array MadMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WHEC724 View Post
    Auxiliary are civilians. UCMJ doesn't apply.
    My bad - removed my post regarding the UCMJ.

  9. #9
    Ex Member Array NYCrulesU's Avatar
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    I wasn't there so clearly my opinion is just that, an opinion based on the story told.

    First, I think you overreacted and based your fear, yes fear, simply on the 3 individuals age, appearance amd how they were dressed. Nothing was mentioned on their actions that made them sound like a serious threat. I think that was very discriminatory of you.

    Secondly, pocket carry? Have we not learned anything on this forum? I don't think much else needs to be said. There is no, I repeat NO,
    excuse for pocket carry. It's sloppy, irrisponsible and dangerous.

    Lastly, if that was your reaction to three younger guys that probably were dressed/acting their age...I would have to see your reaction to me in a store late at night. I'm 5'11 245 (big boy), I have full grown unkept beard, I wear skullies (winter hats for you suburban anglos), ears pierced, eyebrow pierced, hoody (hooded sweatshirt, again for you suburbanites), shredded jeans and I'm covered in tattoo's...arms, neck, legs. I open carry and am in LE. I mostly look like an pissed off biker, so my wife says.

    Learning not to judge a book by it's cover might be something you might want to add into your training. If someone pulls a gun on me because they claim that I looked scarey and they felt "threatened" I can tell you they would have a hard time backing that up in court.

    I guess my point is that not every law abiding citizen, good natured human being wears a polo shirt and dockers and is named Arthur and such.

    Oh, and good job on running home, calling the store manager and getting some poor kid fired because you weren't pleased with his blatant violation of store policy (having friends around) and these friends scared you.

    Some people are unreal. I've said it before and will say it again, people afraid of their own shadow should not be carrying. They are more of a danger than most criminals.
    Harryball and Sharkman like this.

  10. #10
    Distinguished Member Array claude clay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYCrulesU View Post
    I wasn't there so clearly my opinion is just that, an opinion based on the story told.

    First, I think you overreacted and based your fear, yes fear, simply on the 3 individuals age, appearance amd how they were dressed. Nothing was mentioned on their actions that made them sound like a serious threat. I think that was very discriminatory of you.

    Secondly, pocket carry? Have we not learned anything on this forum? I don't think much else needs to be said. There is no, I repeat NO,
    excuse for pocket carry. It's sloppy, irrisponsible and dangerous.

    Lastly, if that was your reaction to three younger guys that probably were dressed/acting their age...I would have to see your reaction to me in a store late at night. I'm 5'11 245 (big boy), I have full grown unkept beard, I wear skullies (winter hats for you suburban anglos), ears pierced, eyebrow pierced, hoody (hooded sweatshirt, again for you suburbanites), shredded jeans and I'm covered in tattoo's...arms, neck, legs. I open carry and am in LE. I mostly look like an pissed off biker, so my wife says.

    Learning not to judge a book by it's cover might be something you might want to add into your training. If someone pulls a gun on me because they claim that I looked scarey and they felt "threatened" I can tell you they would have a hard time backing that up in court.

    I guess my point is that not every law abiding citizen, good natured human being wears a polo shirt and dockers and is named Arthur and such.
    i am not going to say plus or minus about your attitude--

    only that you-have-a-lot-of-it
    Arthritis sucks big-big
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  11. #11
    Ex Member Array NYCrulesU's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by claude clay View Post
    i am not going to say plus or minus about your attitude--

    only that you-have-a-lot-of-it
    There is nothing false about your statement. I have plenty of attitude. Good and bad, when needed. I am far from meek.

    Based on your bolding of a specific part of my post, it appears you take issue with my pov on pocket carry. I stand by what I said. It is sloppy, irrisponsible and dangerous....to the carrier and others. They make holsters, iwb/owb, for a reason.

  12. #12
    Member Array DocPMD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYCrulesU View Post
    I wasn't there so clearly my opinion is just that, an opinion based on the story told.

    First, I think you overreacted and based your fear, yes fear, simply on the 3 individuals age, appearance amd how they were dressed. Nothing was mentioned on their actions that made them sound like a serious threat. I think that was very discriminatory of you.

    Secondly, pocket carry? Have we not learned anything on this forum? I don't think much else needs to be said. There is no, I repeat NO,
    excuse for pocket carry. It's sloppy, irrisponsible and dangerous.

    Lastly, if that was your reaction to three younger guys that probably were dressed/acting their age...I would have to see your reaction to me in a store late at night. I'm 5'11 245 (big boy), I have full grown unkept beard, I wear skullies (winter hats for you suburban anglos), ears pierced, eyebrow pierced, hoody (hooded sweatshirt, again for you suburbanites), shredded jeans and I'm covered in tattoo's...arms, neck, legs. I open carry and am in LE. I mostly look like an pissed off biker, so my wife says.

    Learning not to judge a book by it's cover might be something you might want to add into your training. If someone pulls a gun on me because they claim that I looked scarey and they felt "threatened" I can tell you they would have a hard time backing that up in court.

    I guess my point is that not every law abiding citizen, good natured human being wears a polo shirt and dockers and is named Arthur and such.

    Oh, and good job on running home, calling the store manager and getting some poor kid fired because you weren't pleased with his blatant violation of store policy (having friends around) and these friends scared you.

    Some people are unreal. I've said it before and will say it again, people afraid of their own shadow should not be carrying. They are more of a danger than most criminals.
    I get your point - don't judge a book by it's cover. But until you have a chance to read the book, the cover is the only thing you have to go on.

    If we are going to practice good SA, our analysis of any given environment has to be based upon something other than just the presence of people. Unfortunately, the analysis should include their appearance. I am not racist, but the presence of certain people of certain race and age will heighten my state of readiness for sure. Statistics would likely support my assumptions.

    If you choose to look like a thug, expect to get treated like one.

    After the fact it definitely appears to me to have been an over reaction, especially the part about getting the guy fired (presumably). But in real time, if I were in that situation, I probably would have reacted the same.

    Doc
    RemMod597 and wmhawth like this.

  13. #13
    Ex Member Array MadMac's Avatar
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    Easiest way to disarm a wiseacre like that: laugh at yourself, say something self-deprecating, and make a it a joke. Everyone laughs, and the skuzz balls realize they can't annoy you.

    If, as you say, they were obviously just some slacker friends of the pimply-faced clerk, I doubt they would be ready to violently assault you. It would be one thing if they were in the Stab-and-Grab holding the place up. You think 55 and 5'7" makes you an easy mark? I don't. Would the clerk tell his buddies to come out and hang at his gas station and rob a few customers? Doubt it. Leave your gun alone.

    Say, "Yeah - I managed to get a few tons of cocaine today, and a barge full of weed. Hey, you guys look like some people we saw running the other way....what's you name again?" Haa ahha haha.

    When they realize you're just going to josh with them, they almost always back off. Much more so than if you go the "back off" route. I've done this with drunk bikers, jerks in bars, and local hoodlums looking to tease the older folks. Beats getting them riled up, then having to shoot them.
    NYCrulesU likes this.

  14. #14
    Senior Member Array CowboyColby's Avatar
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    I guess I won't reply since my name is Arthur and I wear polos and dockers?

    Just Kidding

    (What are dockers?)

    Nevermind I googled it looks like dress pants or slacks or fancy shoes

  15. #15
    Member Array Orange Boy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYCrulesU View Post
    First, I think you overreacted and based your fear, yes fear, simply on the 3 individuals age, appearance amd how they were dressed. Nothing was mentioned on their actions that made them sound like a serious threat. I think that was very discriminatory of you.
    I disagree, I think he saw a situation the "could" have gone bad very quickly. They were close, rude and aggressive. What was he supposed to do, wait until a knife was at his throat to realize he should have had his hand on his .380? He didn't brandish it, just had his hand on it. I think you might be the one overreacting to his actions.


    Quote Originally Posted by NYCrulesU View Post
    Secondly, pocket carry? Have we not learned anything on this forum? I don't think much else needs to be said. There is no, I repeat NO, excuse for pocket carry. It's sloppy, irrisponsible and dangerous.
    Nonsense. I pocket carry 90% of the time and it has some very positive advantages (which I'm sure you don't want to hear about) because you seem to have a closed mind to the subject.



    Quote Originally Posted by NYCrulesU View Post
    Oh, and good job on running home, calling the store manager and getting some poor kid fired because you weren't pleased with his blatant violation of store policy (having friends around) and these friends scared you. Some people are unreal. I've said it before and will say it again, people afraid of their own shadow should not be carrying. They are more of a danger than most criminals.
    Now you are putting down the OP because he was situationally aware to a bunch of rude punks that chose confront him when he was minding his own business? All he's trying to do is relate a situation in a forum designed for that purpose. We're not here to discriminate and monday morning quarterback. You may be LE and have a ton of training, but your attitude stinks. If you were in one of my classes and displayed that knowitall attitude I'd return your money and send you home.

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