Element of surprise

Element of surprise

This is a discussion on Element of surprise within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Do you believe the element of surprise would give you the upper hand in a defensive situation, especially if the perp did not know you ...

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Thread: Element of surprise

  1. #1
    Distinguished Member Array Pro2A's Avatar
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    Question Element of surprise

    Do you believe the element of surprise would give you the upper hand in a defensive situation, especially if the perp did not know you were armed? For example, lets say there is an armed man in a bank waiving a gun around at customers and employees. You are around the corner and have a clear shot. Even though he is armed, you draw your weapon and come around the corner with your handgun already pointed at him. It would obviously be a surprise to him, thus giving you about a 1/2 a second upper hand in eliminating the threat. By the time he even processes what is going on, you could have fired on him and eliminated the threat.


    Do you think the element of surprise could work in your favor?


  2. #2
    VIP Member Array Hiram25's Avatar
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    Yes! Also, if I could shoot from the corner, I would not come around it!
    SpencerB, paching and Bark'n like this.
    Hiram25
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    VIP Member Array BigJon10125's Avatar
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    Yes it would but I would be calling 911, unless my wife kids or any of the other few people on my "list" were in danger.
    BigJon


    "Better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt" ~ Mark Twain

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    Member Array 1911srule's Avatar
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    OK, I'll play Devils advocate...we're not police. So unless he's an active shooter or we are targeted for extermination, why are we going for this guy??IMHO, never start a gunfight if you don't have to. A crowded bank, no way. Lots of ways someone could get shot if someone plays "hero"..Nope.Just be a good witness unless it goes worst case scenario..
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    Senior Member Array Okemo's Avatar
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    Self defense isn't about 'saving the day'. Let the guy get his money from the bank. Cops can take care of the rest. If no shots are fired, why antagonize it?
    And you know I could have me a million more friends, and all I'd have to lose is my point of view. -- John Prine (A Good Time)

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    Member Array gunguy82's Avatar
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    The element of surprise and shock and aww, are always an advantage, but before you decide to make that move ensure you're ready to do what needs to be done to eliminate the threat or threats, situational awareness, clear safe line of fire and backround, etc. if you don't use it to your advantage the bg sure as hell will
    atctimmy and Bill MO like this.
    And so when man and horse go down beneath a saber keen, or in a roaring charge of fierce melee you stop a bullet clean, and the hostiles come to get your scalp, just empty your canteen, put your pistol to your head and go to Fiddlers green. U.S Army Cavalry

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    Senior Member Array Okemo's Avatar
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    Ex Member Array NYCrulesU's Avatar
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    This s for all "sheepdog" heroes.

    Same scenerio with a twist. BG robbing bank. Has customers proned out hands on heads. You have the drop on him...your so-called element of surprise...you shoot and manage to take him out with no harm to anyone else.

    Twist one: At a minimum you are sued in civil court by one or more of the bank patrons you "thought" you were saving. You lose everything because you found guilty of uneccessarily putting their lives in danger by not letting trained authorities handle things.

    Twist two: You take out BG. Suddenly you take one to the back of the head. Lights out, permanently. You didn't see nor even consider the accomplice he had proned out on the floor who was the insider. He/she offs you and either makes a break for it or it turns into a hostage situation. Either way you are dead hero.


    Solution: Call 911. Give good accurate details. How many customers, employees, BG's. And let those trained to do their jobs do it.

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    Scenario aside. Yes the element of surprise works in your favor everytime.
    Secret Spuk, atctimmy and Bark'n like this.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  10. #10
    Member Array Nutrodoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYCrulesU View Post
    This s for all "sheepdog" heroes.

    Same scenerio with a twist. BG robbing bank. Has customers proned out hands on heads. You have the drop on him...your so-called element of surprise...you shoot and manage to take him out with no harm to anyone else.

    Twist one: At a minimum you are sued in civil court by one or more of the bank patrons you "thought" you were saving. You lose everything because you found guilty of uneccessarily putting their lives in danger by not letting trained authorities handle things.

    Twist two: You take out BG. Suddenly you take one to the back of the head. Lights out, permanently. You didn't see nor even consider the accomplice he had proned out on the floor who was the insider. He/she offs you and either makes a break for it or it turns into a hostage situation. Either way you are dead hero.


    Solution: Call 911. Give good accurate details. How many customers, employees, BG's. And let those trained to do their jobs do it.
    I'm so glad you said this. I love what Lt. Col. Grossman has to say, but his "sheepdog" analogy has been severely misused. Playing cop or playing hero is a bad idea in so many ways. Even though I not only was a police officer, but was an academy instructor, I am not one now. And even though I still train and am good at what I do, I would not intervene in the proposed scenario. Active shooter? That's a different story. Spidey sense telling me things are about to go violent? I might respond differently.

    Civilians with guns have every right - and hopefully the training and ability - to use deadly force effectively to protect themselves and their loved ones. Other than that, it's almost impossible to know enough about a situation to start shooting. As 1911srule said, "never start a gunfight if you don't have to". It is not your job to protect the bank's money and nobody is shooting at the customers. Bullets don't always stop the Bad Guy. In fact, even multiple bullets often don't do it. No offense, but you are unlikely to have the training, knowledge or skills to handle an armed robbery in progress. You firing a shot - even if it hits - is likely to be the catalyst of a cascade of events you are not prepared to handle.

    Be a sheepdog for your family. That's an extremely important job - and that is enough.

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    Distinguished Member Array kelcarry's Avatar
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    Hey Pro: Put me on the list with BigJon, 1911, Okemo etal. Yes there is an Alter Ego rule out there in many states that allow you to deal with a situation as if you are the person in imminent danger but, as others have said, what is it in your thread scenario that has your dog in this fight? Your "written demeanor" leads me to believe that you cannot wait to play police or hero and that is not what your primary CCWP responsibility is all about--this can get you in more trouble than you are bargaining for. 911, police, let the Bg have the money etal--make a lot more sense. You are not in imminent danger.
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    Senior Member Array BkCo1's Avatar
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    I am not going around the corner!
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  13. #13
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    Well, speed, surprise, and violence of action are generally the three elements of how you stop a threat.

    However, generally speaking, in most civilian encounters, surprise goes to the BG.

    But, do some research on the OODA loop, learn it, understand it, implement it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1911srule View Post
    OK, I'll play Devils advocate...we're not police. So unless he's an active shooter or we are targeted for extermination, why are we going for this guy??IMHO, never start a gunfight if you don't have to. A crowded bank, no way. Lots of ways someone could get shot if someone plays "hero"..Nope.Just be a good witness unless it goes worst case scenario..
    Quote Originally Posted by Okemo View Post
    Self defense isn't about 'saving the day'. Let the guy get his money from the bank. Cops can take care of the rest. If no shots are fired, why antagonize it?





    ^^^^I'm in this camp^^^^^^^^^^^^^


    On this one.

    You start shooting the likelyhood of an innocent getting shot in the meelee is exponential.
    You don't need the grief of that hanging over your head.
    If the perp starts opening up, the chances of a victim actually dying is not that great, save for maybe a shotgun blast.

    Then, maybe, just maybe I'd intervene.
    I would rather die with good men than hide with cowards
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    VIP Member Array First Sgt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pro2A View Post
    Do you believe the element of surprise would give you the upper hand in a defensive situation, especially if the perp did not know you were armed?

    Do you think the element of surprise could work in your favor?
    YES...what else can be said?
    Sometimes in life you have to stand your ground. It's a hard lesson to learn and even most adults don't get it, but in the end only I can be responsible for my life. If faced with any type of adversity, only I can overcome it. Waiting for someone else to take responsibility is a long fruitless wait.

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