Trend - Body Armor Worn During Home Invasions - Page 2

Trend - Body Armor Worn During Home Invasions

This is a discussion on Trend - Body Armor Worn During Home Invasions within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; My range trips always include failure drills....

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Thread: Trend - Body Armor Worn During Home Invasions

  1. #16
    Senior Member Array Bubbiesdad's Avatar
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    My range trips always include failure drills.

    Always remember that others may hate you but those who hate you don't win unless you hate them. And then you destroy yourself.
    Richard M Nixon
    Owning a handgun doesn't make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician.
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  2. #17
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    Nothing wrong with a good long gun approach to home defense. I agree that the fear of having the barrel grabbed, especially with a 10.5 or 14" barrel is pretty thin.

    Based on our current situation, I will stick with the handgun for home defense. Different setup, different circumstances and the long gun approach might be put into use.

    During a home invasion it might be very difficult to determine in the heat of the moment whether or not they have body armor, so when training, practicing for shots where body armor isn't covering might be a good practice. Pelvic areas usually aren't covered and offer larger target areas than the head shot.

    The key thing is whether you choose a long gun or handgun, know how to use it in your arena and practice for all the scenarios you can think of.

    Sucks that this type of thing happened to the vet, and so close to your home.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  3. #18
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonconsiglio View Post
    I have a 6 year old and a 2 year old on separate floors for now while we're redoing a room. I have no choice but to clear my house. I keep a 10.5" AR (LMT with a DD Mk18 RIS II) ready to go in the bedroom as well as the handgun I carry daily. It's equipped with a Surefire Scout light, Aimpoint and occasionally a PEQ 15. We have a plan, but we all know how those go.

    I'm in a shoot house as often as I can so I'm pretty confident in my ability. As for a bad guy grabbing a barrel, I understand the point, but pretty unlikely, especially with a 10.5" as my support hand is near the muzzle. Even when clearing with my 14.5", I wouldn't be concerned about that.

    Also, there are techniques that'll work in your favor should that occur. Depending if you prefer a high or low ready - I prefer a low ready clearing alone - if someone grabs the barrel of the long gun, you can easily take a knee and fire (or grab your secondary if so equipped). I've seen it demonstrated with simunitions and it's actually quite effective.
    I agree with you that if trained in clearing a building then an AR/MP is the way to go. Unfortunately most people do not have access to a shoot house or have access to proper training. For our annual family day we had our wives go through our shoothouse and they had a blast. We made it fun but taught them how to do it properly. It was good to know that they were prepared while we were gone.

  4. #19
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    I agree with you that if trained in clearing a building then an AR/MP is the way to go. Unfortunately most people do not have access to a shoot house or have access to proper training. For our annual family day we had our wives go through our shoothouse and they had a blast. We made it fun but taught them how to do it properly. It was good to know that they were prepared while we were gone.
    Very cool. I wish I could get my wife to spend more time on any weapon..
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

  5. #20
    VIP Member Array 10thmtn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonconsiglio View Post
    I have a 6 year old and a 2 year old...I keep a 10.5" AR (LMT with a DD Mk18 RIS II) ready to go in the bedroom as well as the handgun I carry daily.
    I'm curious, as I have young children as well (an 8 y.o. boy and a 2 y.o. girl)...how do you keep your rifle "ready to go" while still keeping it out of the children's reach?

    I keep my handguns in a GunVault next to our bed. It also contains the keys to the larger safe in the bedroom, where the shotgun resides. I keep it loaded with a full mag tube, chamber empty, safety off. That safe will not get opened until we are all in the bedroom. Until then, I use my Glock 19.

    You need to get to your children on the other end of the home. They will be scared, sleepy, disoriented. And there are two of them, and only one of you - unless your wife is going to clear the home with you as a team? How are you going to herd your kids toward your safe room, when both of your hands are full of rifle? What if they refuse to move due to fear, and you need to pick them up? Sure, you can run an AR with one hand, but is that really the best option?

    I'm sorry Jon - I know you are a HUGE fan of the AR, and maybe it is the best thing for you to use. OTOH, maybe you are confusing military and/or LE offensive tactics with civilian home defensive tactics. They are not necessarily the same. I'm not trying to argue with you - just want to see if you have thought this through completely. Don't use the possibility of home invaders wearing body armor as an excuse to use what you are accustomed to using at work, when a long gun might not (really) be the best thing for moving inside a home, especially when you need to herd children to safety.

    With regard to body armor - a failure to stop is a failure to stop. It matters not if the failure is due to poor shot placement, body armor, drugs, motivation, or an altered mental state. If a shot or two to the torso doesn't do it, you aim for the head. You cannot assume a one-shot stop - even with a long gun.

    Sorry to hear about your neighbor. I hope you and your family stay safe. And I hope you take this post in the spirit intended. I would hate to be considered a "know nothing" with "no training" who considers himself an expert at anything...
    The more good folks carry guns, the fewer shots the crazies can get off.
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  6. #21
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    I hear ya buddy, and they're very good points. My rifle is in condition 3 next to the night stand and my handgun is in the safe on the nightstand. My 6 year old daughter's room is farther down the hall than ours. My 2 year old son's room is is downstairs past the entry and past the living room, kitchen and my office. His room is usually next to my daughter's but we're slowly doing some work on it.

    Now, if I have to clear my home, I'll likely clear every main entry on the way to my son's room. Again, this is temporary until he's back upstairs next to my daughter. Keep in mind I'm working with a 10.5" AR. Chances are I'll throw my handgun n too, but who knows. If the alarm triggers, which has happened a couple times, I'm likely not grabbing my rifle. If I hear smashing and someone coming in, I'd likely grab my rifle and not my handgun due to the urgency. When my alarm sounds, it will let me know what door or window was tampered with.

    My daughter does as she's told. I've had to do this a couple times, including when I had those guys trying to get in then trying to attack with a crowbar. With her, she grabs my belt and stays behind me and slightly to my left. No questions. My son, well he'll likely be irritated that I woke him and I'll have carry him. He will likely latch on and stay asleep. If it's at the point that I've gotten him, I've likely already dealt with the problem or have noticed where the entry was made. At that point, I'll have to reevaluate my actions. I'll know he's still safe in his room from the video monitor. If there's someone inside and I didn't encounter them upstairs, then they're somewhere downstairs and I'll need to deal with that before I attempt to get my son and head back up.

    So, no plan is perfect and mine certainly isn't either, but I can say from experience, that I'm going on the offensive and I'm going to handle any threat in my home on my time, not when they make it to my room. Response time for the local police is slow. After nearly shooting a man trying to break in to my house, it took them 12 minutes to get here. A lot can happen in 1.2 minutes, let alone 12. Actually, a lot can happen in 12 seconds as the last situation I was in demonstrated that. 3am, stumbled on two guys, one that tried to attack me. Luckily, even while half asleep, I was still able to react and gain control of the situation.

    I understand the point of hunkering down. I just know what I do and how I react to these situations. I cannot wait to see what happens. Believe me, I understand both sides and I will always suggest staying put unless you have no other choice. But, it's just not the way it always works. I'm a pretty mellow dude, believe it or not. But, try to come into my home or hurt my family, I'd clear my house with my teeth if I had to.

    If I could somehow change my mindset (which is key here, above all else), remove the experiences I have and erase all the training and ask this question again, I'd likely say I'd stay put or get to the kids and lock it down, leaving out weapon choice. I wouldn't have dealt with the animals I have and I wouldn't have trained with the people I have that have taught me what I know but also shared very personal experiences.

    There's no wrong answer, so please don't think I'm saying everyone should go on the offensive or that everyone should stay put. It's a personal thing and neither one is the best solution for every scenario. One tweaker with a broomhandle or four hardcore guys in soft armor and serious weapons.... No children or a couple.... Married or alone? Small apartment or 3,500 sq ft house.... Handling a rifle pretty much daily, training quite regularly and working in the industry or have a few firearms for the collection and shoot at the range when the weather is nice once every few weeks.... All of it will alter my response drastically.

    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post

    Sorry to hear about your neighbor. I hope you and your family stay safe. And I hope you take this post in the spirit intended. I would hate to be considered a "know nothing" with "no training" who considers himself an expert at anything...
    Ha! I always know where you're coming from and I appreciate the debate.....even if you're always wrong! ;)

    Oh, as for the failure to stop drills, I've pretty much stuck with Paul Howe's teaching and shoot at least four center mass then go to the head if possible or necessary. Either way, regardless of rounds fired, I always train to shoot them to the ground, not a set number and reassess. Dropping targets are great for this.
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

  7. #22
    VIP Member Array 10thmtn's Avatar
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    Jon - Glad you have a safe for the handgun. As far as the rifle goes, I would not be comfortable with the gun outside of a safe, even in condition 3, with children around. Children are...children. The onus for their safety rests with us, not with them, and no matter how well you teach them about gun safety...they are children. I was able to rack the action on a rifle at a pretty tender age.

    If you put your rifle in a safe, I think you will find yourself re-evaluating which weapon you use to clear your home. It's just much faster to get the handgun out of the safe and into action than any long gun from any large safe that I've seen.

    But what do I know...I'm always wrong!

    The more good folks carry guns, the fewer shots the crazies can get off.
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  8. #23
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post
    Jon - Glad you have a safe for the handgun. As far as the rifle goes, I would not be comfortable with the gun outside of a safe, even in condition 3, with children around. Children are...children. The onus for their safety rests with us, not with them, and no matter how well you teach them about gun safety...they are children. I was able to rack the action on a rifle at a pretty tender age.If you put your rifle in a safe, I think you will find yourself re-evaluating which weapon you use to clear your home. It's just much faster to get the handgun out of the safe and into action than any long gun from any large safe that I've seen. But what do I know...I'm always wrong!
    I understand and am not in any way disregarding safety, but where it is, it's not easily seen or accessible and only there when I'm in the room. My daughter can't charge it (take her shooting once a month) and impossible for my son right now. The safety is on (charged but not chambered since you can't engage the safety without it being charged) and no round is in the chamber.

    After my experience where I fired a handgun in self defense (not the situation I reference earlier), nothing will change my mind about what I use to defend my home. The only time I rely on a handgun is when a long gun is completely impractical.

    Now, I never leave any weapon unattended when my children are around. I thinkif you head down here when a few of the other guys do (a few m4c and Lightfighter members as well), maybe you'll reconsider your choice in a handgun... ;)

    Again, going into a reply knowing that you're always wrong is very helpful! :D
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

  9. #24
    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
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    They were teaching how to clear a house using a rifle platform on Personal Defense TV.there were a lot of good tips,but it's something you really need to practice using an empty weapon,inside your home.Down here in the Rio Grande Valley they have had thugs using body armor,usually when they are robbing drug stash houses,but they can always screw up and hit the wrong house
    "Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country,"
    --Mayor Marion Barry, Washington , DC .

  10. #25
    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
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    I don't have kids in the house,but I hang my AR15 with a 30 round mag over the top of the door frame inside the closet,It's out of the way and hidden from view unless you walk in the closet turn around and look up
    "Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country,"
    --Mayor Marion Barry, Washington , DC .

  11. #26
    VIP Member Array 10thmtn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonconsiglio View Post
    I understand and am not in any way disregarding safety, but where it is, it's not easily seen or accessible and only there when I'm in the room. My daughter can't charge it (take her shooting once a month) and impossible for my son right now. The safety is on (charged but not chambered since you can't engage the safety without it being charged) and no round is in the chamber.

    After my experience where I fired a handgun in self defense (not the situation I reference earlier), nothing will change my mind about what I use to defend my home. The only time I rely on a handgun is when a long gun is completely impractical.

    Now, I never leave any weapon unattended when my children are around. I thinkif you head down here when a few of the other guys do (a few m4c and Lightfighter members as well), maybe you'll reconsider your choice in a handgun... ;)

    Again, going into a reply knowing that you're always wrong is very helpful! :D
    Jon - Sorry to drift this thread off topic, but reading this post, the first thought I had was "famous last words." Children have an uncanny knack for being able to do what we think they cannot do, and for finding things that we think are hidden. Do you really remember to secure your rifle, EVERY time you leave the room - even for just a few moments? Really? What if your kids wander into your room in the middle of the night, while you and your wife are asleep? What about their friends who come to visit? It only takes a moment of inattention for children and unsecured guns to lead to tragedy.

    Here is a link to an article by Kathy Jackson on the subject of securing guns in the home when children are present. I agree with her, that layers are needed, and one of them is blocking physical access. Thinking that the kids cannot find or operate the gun is fantasy - actually, it is a dangerous delusion:

    Cornered Cat - Storing Firearms Around Children

    Of course, a long gun is always going to be a better weapon than a handgun. But, that needs to be balanced against storage safety, ease of access, ease of movement inside a home, defense against a gun grab, and the need to have a free hand for other tasks (grabbing the kids, calling 911 on the phone, flipping on lights, opening doors, etc).

    I'd be curious to read your thoughts on handgun choice.

    I very much doubt I'll be able to go to Texas any time soon, but thanks for the invite - I'm sure it would be fun.

    In the mean time - keep that rifle in a safe, all the time, please!
    The more good folks carry guns, the fewer shots the crazies can get off.
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  12. #27
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    I hear ya again and all good points. Believe me, if this stuff was just a small part of my life, it would be different. I evaluate and reevaluate on a very regular basis. If I hadn't been through what I've been through, I might do things differently.

    There's pros and cons with everything, the key is to weigh them out and choose accordingly. IF my room was accessible to my children, if they ever came in without knocking and it wasn't off limits and if I wasn't in there, it would be a different story. I've had this conversation with people we all know and didn't just come to the decisions I do off of a guess. You have to understand where I'm coming from and my involvement with this stuff.

    Once the kids are in bed, the rifle is put in its place, safety on and unchambered. You have to nderstanding I'm in the room and they aren't coming in without me opening the door. One thing I know other do is keep the mag in the small safe with a handgun. Just for you, I'll give that consideration. Seeing as I don't grab my rifle for simple bumps in the night, it probably wouldn't change anything for me to do it that way. I'll put it to the timer and we'll see.

    This isn't directed at you, this is just a general statement.... It's very easy to suggest doing the most correct thing when you haven't experienced the worst. I can tell you want you want to hear or I can tell you my experiences. I have large 3 safes. Everything is stored properly and secured except what is kept on me or very near by, which is still safe and secure.

    In a perfect world, I'll have time to get to my weapon of choice. In reality, things are happening so very fast and on someone else terms that you have to adapt. In that small chance something will happen, it'll likely be one of the most important and defining moments of your life. I can tell you from personal experience in defensive situations, there's no time for anything but reactive fighting.

    If I "fantasize" that I'll get to the safe and grab my weapon, that would be delusional as it likely won't happen even with the preventative measures we have in place. So, I do what I have to do because I know how this stuff plays out. As for the rifle, I can't see ever choosing anything else for my needs, though I won't be choosing it just because there was a strange sound, but I will if the alarm trips.

    As for my handgun choice, I was very into 1911's for a long time and hand a number of them, though Nighthawk is my first choice. I've had HKs and Sigs and really like the HK45 and 45c, p30's are nice too. I've used M&Ps and Glocks and right now I carry a Glock. I think the key there is to use what you shoot best, can get the most rounds on target in the shortest time and keep at least one reload handy. Extra ammo is nice, but so is clearing a malfunction.
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

  13. #28
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    Thats why I teach"Multiple Stimulas",never rely on one round!

  14. #29
    VIP Member Array 10thmtn's Avatar
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    Sounds like you've got it all figured out. At least we agree on the Glocks.

    I was much like you - before kids. Mini 14 under the bed, full mag, chamber empty, safety off. Not anymore.

    We don't sleep with our bedroom door closed and locked. As many times as we have to get up to tend to our daughter during the night (she has a mild case of cerebral palsy and is a poor sleeper) there really wouldn't be a point. Plus, I like to be able to hear what's going on - kid coughing? spitting up? possibly choking? etc Those are more likely and dangerous than a home invasion...our son almost choked on his own vomit when he was a toddler...scared the hell out of me.

    I'd love to hear more details about what happened to you, that made you so reluctant to rely on anything other than a rifle - if you care to share.

    For us, we're all on the same (upper) level - my daughter is right across the hall from our bedroom, and our son is only a few steps away at the end of the hall. If I think there is actually someone in the home, I'm not going hunting. I'm blocking the hall, my wife will grab the kids, and into our bedroom we go. Once the door is secured, my wife gets the handgun, I get the shotgun out of the large safe. We've practiced this, so we work as a team. If anyone tries to get through the bedroom door, it's going to be a shell to the torso, followed by one to the head if needed. Body armor won't help them.
    The more good folks carry guns, the fewer shots the crazies can get off.
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  15. #30
    Senior Member Array The Old Anglo's Avatar
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    Don`t care how much armor they have,12GA slugs will do the job quite nicely. Your NOT standing up to a short range barrage no matter what!.

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