Dementia - Page 2

Dementia

This is a discussion on Dementia within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Who let this Alzheimer's patient drive a car? While this is certainly a sad situation, the home owner didn't have much choice...the decision to defend ...

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  1. #16
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    Who let this Alzheimer's patient drive a car?
    While this is certainly a sad situation, the home owner didn't have much choice...the decision to defend self and home when being attacked can take just a second or two.
    He was given little choice...hope he is cleared.
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  2. #17
    VIP Member Array First Sgt's Avatar
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    I personally, have developed a questionaire that I keep posted just inside all the entrance ways to my home. In bold letters across the top it says: "All Unautorized Intruders Please Complete Prior to Continuing". I believe it's somewhere around question 10 on the questionaire that they are asked if they have any mental illness or dementia which would potentially preclude their demise due to their unlawful entry. Once that questionaire is completed, I will personally review it prior to deciding my course of action. JMO

    Ya know, IF you are in the right "It doesn't matter what you did.", and IF you are in the wrong "It doesn't matter what you did." You don't worry about litigation when you need to worry about your life or the lives of your family.

    Problem one - Saving your life or the lives of your loved ones.
    Problem two - Everything else.

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    Sometimes in life you have to stand your ground. It's a hard lesson to learn and even most adults don't get it, but in the end only I can be responsible for my life. If faced with any type of adversity, only I can overcome it. Waiting for someone else to take responsibility is a long fruitless wait.

  3. #18
    Distinguished Member Array noway2's Avatar
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    The article has few details, but it seems to me like there is a rogue prosecutor who doesn't agree with the laws that they have sworn to uphold. Even the police said it was self defense and clearly he wasn't given "privilege" to smash into the garage, tear up the basement and commit assault. From some quick research, it looks like Ohio has had castle doctrine since 2008. Here is a quote (from wikipedia, but should be sufficiently accurate) Emphasis mine:
    ORC 2901.05: Burden of proof - reasonable doubt - self-defense.

    (B)(1) Subject to division (B)(2) of this section, a person is presumed to have acted in self defense or defense of another when using defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another if the person against whom the defensive force is used is in the process of unlawfully and without privilege to do so entering, or has unlawfully and without privilege to do so entered, the residence or vehicle occupied by the person using the defensive force.
    Having a disease, including alzheimers, is not legal justification for commuting violent crimes. It may be a contributing factor, or even a cause of behavior, but it does not excuse you or make you immune from the consequences. Trying to claim it does is akin to the "he was a good kid" defense commonly claimed by banger's parents.

  4. #19
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noway2 View Post
    The article has few details, but it seems to me like there is a rogue prosecutor who doesn't agree with the laws that they have sworn to uphold. Even the police said it was self defense and clearly he wasn't given "privilege" to smash into the garage, tear up the basement and commit assault. From some quick research, it looks like Ohio has had castle doctrine since 2008. Here is a quote (from wikipedia, but should be sufficiently accurate) Emphasis mine:


    Having a disease, including alzheimers, is not legal justification for commuting violent crimes. It may be a contributing factor, or even a cause of behavior, but it does not excuse you or make you immune from the consequences. Trying to claim it does is akin to the "he was a good kid" defense commonly claimed by banger's parents.
    First: I read the article again and the DA said "“These types of occurences are rare,” he said. “This type of a situation where there is the appearance and a probability of a justifiable homicide — it’s still my philosophy that we have an independent look after police authorities complete their investigation rather than just me making that final decision.”" You can look into anything and find something that fits your view. A lot of DA's around the country have a grand jury look into what appear to be justifiable homicide.
    Second: I don't know the laws about people that have a disease so I can't comment on the legality of what you said. I do know that I have read about serious crimes that were committed and the person could not be prosecuted because of mental illness. But your analogy comparing a mental illness or Alzeimers to the defense of "he was a good kid" is ludicrious and like not even close. I mean, it isn't even in the same grid square. I mean like not on the same planet. Your comparing something subjective "he is a good kid" to something that is a documentable fact ,mental illness.

  5. #20
    Distinguished Member Array noway2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post

    Second: I don't know the laws about people that have a disease so I can't comment on the legality of what you said. I do know that I have read about serious crimes that were committed and the person could not be prosecuted because of mental illness. But your analogy comparing a mental illness or Alzeimers to the defense of "he was a good kid" is ludicrious and like not even close. I mean, it isn't even in the same grid square. I mean like not on the same planet. Your comparing something subjective "he is a good kid" to something that is a documentable fact ,mental illness.
    I don't care if he has Alzheimer's or a raging case of hemmorhoids. It doesn't excuse or justify his actions. Just because they may not be able to control themselves or comprehend their actions doesn't negate someone else rights to not be violated or put a burden of responsibility on their victims.

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  6. #21
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noway2 View Post
    I don't care if he has Alzheimer's or a raging case of hemmorhoids. It doesn't excuse or justify his actions. Just because they may not be able to control themselves or comprehend their actions doesn't negate someone else rights to not be violated or put a burden of responsibility on their victims.

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    Nobody including myself has said it negates any rights of the victim. If you can't read a simple sentence then I will be blunt:your analogy is STUPID! There, I didn't want to say that the first time because I wanted to be respectful

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    Nobody including myself has said it negates any rights of the victim. If you can't read a simple sentence then I will be blunt:your analogy is STUPID! There, I didn't want to say that the first time because I wanted to be respectful
    I'm glad you care enough and my opinion has influenced you enough to tell us how you feel about it.

    Consider it a stupid view if you want, but I still think saying things like, "he couldn't help himself" isn't much different than saying, "he was just turning his life around" and all the other excuses we hear from the various DRT's families. It doesn't get you any sympathy from me.

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  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by noway2 View Post
    I'm glad you care enough and my opinion has influenced you enough to tell us how you feel about it.
    No Problem, anytime I can be of help LOL

  9. #24
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    Huh, The admins at Glock Talk must have changed things around here, I don't recognize any of this....
    "He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." – Luke 22:36

    "If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so." – Thomas Jefferson

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    If I was 84 and this happened in my house, there is a good possibility that I would shoot the person as well.
    The possibility is 100% in my home.

  11. #26
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    Just to throw a kink in things. Lets say the person with dementia is related to you. You're at Christmas dinner or grandpa's birthday, whatever and your 80 something year old grand parent who has dementia or alzheimers starts to get violent because they are told to quiet down, or something. They start getting more aggitated and end up hitting your wife/daughter/child (fill in the blank however you want), and when family tries to restrain them, they pick up a lamp, the carving knife, whatever, make threats, takes swings or stabs at others ect.

    Do you shoot grandpa? If not why not. They have become a threat to you and your family, and the law would justify it wouldn't it?

    I don't care about excuses that they are related to you and that is why you wouldn't shoot them, as state laws make no provisions for excluding relatives.

    This may be interesting and we might see a trend between those who have had dealings with older people and failing minds or other persons with mental disabilities in their answers.
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  12. #27
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    Just to throw a kink in things. Lets say the person with dementia is related to you. You're at Christmas dinner or grandpa's birthday, whatever and your 80 something year old grand parent who has dementia or alzheimers starts to get violent because they are told to quiet down, or something. They start getting more aggitated and end up hitting your wife/daughter/child (fill in the blank however you want), and when family tries to restrain them, they pick up a lamp, the carving knife, whatever, make threats, takes swings or stabs at others ect.

    Do you shoot grandpa? If not why not. They have become a threat to you and your family, and the law would justify it wouldn't it?

    I don't care about excuses that they are related to you and that is why you wouldn't shoot them, as state laws make no provisions for excluding relatives.

    This may be interesting and we might see a trend between those who have had dealings with older people and failing minds or other persons with mental disabilities in their answers.
    Totally different. You said you KNOW he has dementia. Plus there is more than just you there? I know you want an answer to shoot or not shoot, but without him being armed with a firearm I would say no...regardless if he is related. If a bunch of people can't control him then something is amiss.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    Just to throw a kink in things. Lets say the person with dementia is related to you. You're at Christmas dinner or grandpa's birthday, whatever and your 80 something year old grand parent who has dementia or alzheimers starts to get violent because they are told to quiet down, or something. They start getting more aggitated and end up hitting your wife/daughter/child (fill in the blank however you want), and when family tries to restrain them, they pick up a lamp, the carving knife, whatever, make threats, takes swings or stabs at others ect.

    Do you shoot grandpa? If not why not. They have become a threat to you and your family, and the law would justify it wouldn't it?
    Interesting question. The short answer is, yes, I would shoot a relative to protect a closer / more important relative. The longer answer is more to suntzu's point in that it wouldn't be my first option and I would be much more inclined to try an alternate method of restraint, even if it were to incur physical risk to myself, where I wouldn't be so inclined with an unknown assailant. Having additional individuals who could and would willingly assist also makes a real difference in both situations.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by GunGeezer View Post
    This is a touchy situation. Many early onset Alzheimer patients get extremely combative when they are confused. They also are usually in denial and can be delusional and that just compounds their problems. My brother, early on, was sure I was calling him on the phone and swearing at him and calling him names. For two yrs. he refused to talk to me and told friends he had no brother. When he advanced to the next stage, acceptance, he had no recollection of any of this and made me his legal guardian. It's all about recognizing the symptoms and getting the right medications. I feel for the victim but he should have been watched more carefully. I'm sure the law doesn't expect the shooter to ask the victim if he is of sound mind as he is trashing the garage and house and attacking him with a board. It would be smile, wait for the flash!
    This!

    I can tell you about the Alzheimer's patient who almost beat his wife to death when she tried to stop him from taking the car keys and driving off.
    6'3", 225 lbs. She was about 5' 2".

    Sometimes very combative and dangerous.

    Also, 9 yrs difference at 75 and 84 can be huge.
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  15. #30
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    Someone breaks in my house and attacks me and/or loved ones, I don't care it they're suffering from dementia, are drunk or anything else. They will get a Cease and Desist notice in the form of lead.
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