Question regarding castle doctine in missouri - Page 2

Question regarding castle doctine in missouri

This is a discussion on Question regarding castle doctine in missouri within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Hey 1911 and Ortho: If you "presume imminent danger" and are real about it, at least in SC, there is no "one answer does not ...

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  1. #16
    Distinguished Member Array kelcarry's Avatar
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    Hey 1911 and Ortho: If you "presume imminent danger" and are real about it, at least in SC, there is no "one answer does not fit all" in the equation. Someone is trying to breakdown your door or your window---he is not my neighbor, he is not the fiire dept, he is not any of these "what ifs"--am I missing something here? He dies.


  2. #17
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    orthodoc...."sawbones" if you will... (Man, I've had enough of you guys over the years, but that's a different story.)

    As you point out the film will slow 'em down, but unless the doors themselves are reinforced... Strikemaster/door armor/what have you, the open door is one quick boot away...

    If the wife is that "set" against guns... could she pull the trigger on a BG? (probably, with kids to protect. Mama bear syndrome). But if your talking a minisafe... we're talking handgun...

    If it were me, and my household, and I was able to secure the perimeter as well as you have (in order to "buy time") This would be my "plan of defense:"

    She has the time to get to the gun? So, she has time to get to the bedroom. Probably, she has time to gather the kids as well...

    Get the kids together into the bedroom (or chose a safe room). Lock the door. Arm yourself. Use a CEL phone to call 911 (phone lines HAVE been cut in home invasions, and recently).

    I really think a shotgun is the answer here. Couple of reasons.

    1. Adrenaline and fine motor skills. 12 ga. shells are big and they go into a big hole.
    2. Less accuracy required. Aim this 12 "cannon" at the bedroom door from cover of bed, dresser, whatever. While the spread on a 12 ga at short range isn't great, it's better that any handgun, requiring less "Aim." Shotty should have a mounted light (if they can cut the phone, they can cut the power).


    Stay on the phone with 911 wait for lights and sirens, inform dispatch you are armed, where you are in the house, determine a "code word" between you and LEO, if LEO enters the house. You don't want to shoot the good guys when the door knob to the bedroom rattles.

    There is no sane reason why she should see the intruder, take the time afforded by the security to go get the gun, then come back, to shoot the bad guy... too many things can happen while she's making the round trip... he could get in, he could move to a different entry point, and, as I've seen much more frequently lately, there could be multiple BG's.

    Now, the problem is training for this... practicing it a couple of times... it's like a fire drill... and if your kids aren't old enough yet, there will be a time when they come home from school and make you do a fire drill... because the nice firemen came to the school and told them all about it.

    So, here are the steps:

    1. Gather the kids to the safe room.
    2. Lock the door (you might want to consider fortifying this door to solid core and jamb protection, maybe even a deadbolt.)
    3. Lock and load. Aim at the door.
    4. Call 911 on a CEL PHONE, which should be on the charger all the time in the bedroom when it's not in her purse.
    5. Set a code word for LEO, should he have to enter the house.
    6. Wait for lights and sirens



    That is the BEST advice I can give... By the time BC and BS takes out the "in system/approved provider discount," there's no sense in me charging you for it anyway...
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

  3. #18
    Member Array gunguy82's Avatar
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    My wife and I go on the rule if you're in our "bubble" and present yourself as a threat she calls 911 while I handle the threat, if my wifes alone and in the house and has the opportunity to call 911 she will, but as a cya policy wait till entry is gained then blast em...when I say "bubble" I am referring to house, car, garage, on our property or anywhere a bg poses an immediate threat and immediate action is necessary
    And so when man and horse go down beneath a saber keen, or in a roaring charge of fierce melee you stop a bullet clean, and the hostiles come to get your scalp, just empty your canteen, put your pistol to your head and go to Fiddlers green. U.S Army Cavalry

  4. #19
    Member Array Chicago45's Avatar
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    Orthodoc, if your wife reasonably believes deadly force is necessary to defend herself or a third person from what she reasonably believes to be the use or imminent use of unlawful force by an intruder, then she would be justified in shooting the intruder as he attempted to unlawfully enter your dwelling. Section 563.031 RSMo 2011. (Available here: Section 563-031 Use of force in defense of persons.). Your wife does not need to wait until the intruder successfully enters your home before she can shoot him.

    The good thing about MO is that, normally, pleading the defense of justification in using deadly force must be proved by a preponderance of the evidence by the defendant (your wife). That is, in other jurisdictions your wife would have to prove that she was lawful in using deadly force against another who was attempting to unlawfully enter your house. In MO the script is flipped. The state must prove beyond a reasonable doubt (a much higher burden than preponderance of the evidence) that your wife did not reasonably believe that the use of deadly force was necessary to defend against what she reasonably believed was the use or imminent use of unlawful force by the intruder.

    The other benefit of MO's position on this issue is that whether your wife "reasonably believes" something is based on a subjective standard. That is, the court will truly attempt to determine whether your wife reasonably believed something based on her circumstances, from her point of view. Most jurisdictions use an objective standard, which means the court would attempt to determine whether your wife reasonably believed something based on what a reasonably prudent person under the circumstances would believe. The former standard is much more forgiving to your wife.


    Please note that this post is merely my opinion and should not be relied upon as legal advice or counsel. Consult your licensed attorney for an accurate representation of the relevant law.

  5. #20
    Member Array Orthodoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    As you point out the film will slow 'em down, but unless the doors themselves are reinforced... Strikemaster/door armor/what have you, the open door is one quick boot away...

    I
    I have been contemplating best way to enforce the door. I just ordered the door armor for all 3 doors. Thanks

  6. #21
    Member Array Orthodoc's Avatar
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    I followed the link from Chicago45 above and for those of you in MO it looks like you do not have to wait until they get in, the law actually mentions attempting to unlawfully enter.

    2. A person may not use deadly force upon another person under the circumstances specified in subsection 1 of this section unless:

    (1) He or she reasonably believes that such deadly force is necessary to protect himself, or herself or her unborn child, or another against death, serious physical injury, or any forcible felony;

    (2) Such force is used against a person who unlawfully enters, remains after unlawfully entering, or attempts to unlawfully enter a dwelling, residence, or vehicle lawfully occupied by such person

  7. #22
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orthodoc View Post
    It was professionally installed. It does not change appearance of the window. It is not cheap however it does a great job with the demo i have seen. I have it on almost all my first floor, at least those windows that someone could come in through. The demo is great to see, you get to smash a window with a bat. It WILL NOT shatter even with repeated strikes in the same spot. Think of a windshield that was in a car wreck that buckles but you don't get any penetration. Nice stuff if you can stomach the price tag upfront. My price installed was just under 2k for 16 windows/doors that are all around 3 by 7 ft. They do make different "levels" of film that add more toughness and even blast protection but I don't know the cost of those. I am sure the labor varies also. For me it was worth it to slow down a home invasion attempt long enough for my wife to go get a firearm and protect the kids if i am not home (I work late hours at the hospital ) because she is barely gun allowing, and would never allow any guns out of the mini safe while the kids are home so she would need to go get it, meaning she needs a time buffer greater than someone just smashing in the back glass and coming right in
    Thanks very much! That's not such a bad price if it was professionally installed. Is there any kind of warranty if they are damaged in a break in or by weather (high winds driving a branch against them for instance)?

    Part of the problem for me is that many of the current windows (and that door) need to be replaced in the near future...but that's even thousands more. I like the idea of the film, but hate to install it on windows that need to be replaced. (I have a total of 7 floor to ceiling windows, all older.)
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

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