Question regarding castle doctine in missouri

This is a discussion on Question regarding castle doctine in missouri within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; If my wife is home alone and someone is trying to kick in the door does she actually have to wait unitl he breaks in ...

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    Member Array Orthodoc's Avatar
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    Question regarding castle doctine in missouri

    If my wife is home alone and someone is trying to kick in the door does she actually have to wait unitl he breaks in or can she shoot him through the door and be covered under the castle doctrine. Does it also shield against civil litigation as well as criminal? The recent scenario of the 18 yo girl in OK waiting for the guy to bust in while she was on with 911 got me thinking.

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    Member Array paullie's Avatar
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    i'm guessin that you are going to have several people say "talk to an attorney".......my take on it is that as long as the door is between you and the BG he dosen't have the ability to harm you so i could see a DA saying that it wasn't a clean shoot, but once he's inside it's game on, but i'm just a hillybilly from kansas
    atctimmy likes this.

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    Your scenario...probably. Depends. IMHO if you SEE clearly a BG(s) attempting entry. Weapon visible? Verbal threats? Appearance, body language. Got more than one attempting entry say at two points same time?I'd not want to take a chance of killing an innocent person. It would depend on specific circumstance. What if someone reported a fire or emergency and it is an LEO or fireman? BTW where is that round going? Neighbors house, Residential area? While waiting to get into base housing back in 1986, I had a next door neighbor who was just opposite my trailer by 15-20 ft. Proclaim how she'd empty her 10mm thru her door into the next person attempting to break in. Her husband gone on deployment alot, she was alone. I showed her that my sons bedroom was in her "line of fire". If he or any of my family were hurt from her panic fire. She'd be following the same fate as her attacker by my hand...Heck we already had a bullet hole in one wall , out the opposite at chest level. From an accidental discharge from some dumb...guy THREE trailers down. Pure luck no one was hit. Put a surefire light on or with what ever she's gonna use. Lights are a good thing...
    RIP Jeff Cooper

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    Member Array Orthodoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1911srule View Post
    Your scenario...probably. Depends. IMHO if you SEE clearly a BG(s) attempting entry. Weapon visible? Verbal threats? Appearance, body language. Got more than one attempting entry say at two points same time?I'd not want to take a chance of killing an innocent person. It would depend on specific circumstance. What if someone reported a fire or emergency and it is an LEO or fireman? BTW where is that round going? Neighbors house, Residential area? While waiting to get into base housing back in 1986, I had a next door neighbor who was just opposite my trailer by 15-20 ft. Proclaim how she'd empty her 10mm thru her door into the next person attempting to break in. Her husband gone on deployment alot, she was alone. I showed her that my sons bedroom was in her "line of fire". If he or any of my family were hurt from her panic fire. She'd be following the same fate as her attacker by my hand...Heck we already had a bullet hole in one wall , out the opposite at chest level. From an accidental discharge from some dumb...guy THREE trailers down. Pure luck no one was hit. Put a surefire light on or with what ever she's gonna use. Lights are a good thing...
    my scenario I envisioned was a bad guy trying to break through our back boor which is mostly glass but has 3M safety film on it and won't shatter. It takes A LOT of effort to bust through that stuff so she will have time to see him clearly. Weapon or not, he s trying to kick the door in, so I am assuming he is up to no good. Plus, doesn't the castle doctrine apply to your entire property, not just the interior of your house? As far as the "rules" my wife understands the concept of know what is beyond your target but yes, there potentially are other houses around (subdivision averages .75 acre lots)
    Last edited by SIXTO; January 11th, 2012 at 10:08 AM.

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    You know, to be perfectly honest, my wife's and my policy is to wait until they have actually gained entry. Once on the inside, there is no wiggle room for a prosecutor to try and make a case of recklessness.

    Forced entry, and it's game on. Also, Missouri Castle Doctrine holds you immune from any civil liability from the criminal or their family.

    Recently Missouri's Castle Doctrine was expanded to include your entire property boundary line.

    But when it comes to the home, by personal choice, my wife and I will wait until they have actually gained entry and we have visually identified a target. For whatever reason, I don't like shooting at targets I haven't identified. But that also doesn't mean I won't shoot through a wall, to hit an armed intruder using it for concealment, once I've positively identified the threat.
    -Bark'n
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    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

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    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orthodoc View Post
    my scenario I envisioned was a bad guy trying to break through our back boor which is mostly glass but has 3M safety film on it and won't shatter. It takes A LOT of effort to bust through that stuff so she will have time to see him clearly. Weapon or not, he s trying to kick the door in, so I am assuming he is up to no good. Plus, doesn't the castle doctrine apply to your entire property, not just the interior of your house? As far as the "rules" my wife understands the concept of know what is beyond your target but yes, there potentially are other houses around (subdivision averages .75 acre lots)
    A bit OT: How do you like the 3M film? It was recommended by the officer that came and gave our (rural) neighborhood watch talk. Did you apply it yourself? Was it difficult? Can they see in just as easily as you can see out? I have several floor-to-ceiling windows that I thought it might work for.
    Last edited by SIXTO; January 11th, 2012 at 10:08 AM.
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    Orthodoc, you have a reason to be curious. Exactly what you described just happened in Texas. Man shot at an intruder trying to kick in his back door. Police decided not to press charges (I thought not pressing charges against the homeowner would be a given, but apparently it was a decision that had to be made.)

    I linked the story in In the news, but here's the link again: >>>click<<<
    It could be worse.
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    Tough call. The wording in SC is "presumption of reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily injury" and the deadly force is used against someone "in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering". Still comes down to a state by state thing as to the law and case law, but my reading of SC law says "in the process of forcefully entering", which, unless I only understand chinese, means in the process of breaking the door down---ie, at least in SC, you can shoot them.

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    shoot through the door if he is trying to make entry. if she is in fear for her life and it's your property

    Okla. Woman Shoots, Kills Intruder: 911 Operators Say It's OK to Shoot - ABC News

    here is one more right from this form:

    http://www.myfoxdfw.com/dpp/news/Int...meowner-011012
    Last edited by barstoolguru; January 11th, 2012 at 01:46 PM.

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    The Castle Doctrine in Missouri might cover that situation, but I honestly think that it's one you wouldn't want to take the gamble on. First off, if your door is glass, there is really very little chance that she is going to be in the right place at the right time to shoot him before he gains entry; one good kick or a brick or pipe should take the glass out (safety film or not) quite quickly unless you happen to have high grade security glass. Based on that alone, shooting him before he's breached the glass would leave her open to a duty to prove that he actually had intent to break in. Even if he's on your property, you can't simply shoot him for being there, so proving that the shooting was lawful becomes a lot more difficult when their intent can be questioned. I wouldn't obviously advise that anyone wait until they have a knife stuck in their ribs before defending themselves, but I don't think that shooting them before they have breached the basic barriers that you home has, would be a clear cut self defense situation by the law.

    In Missouri, she has no duty to retreat, so she is well within her right to shoot him once/if she feels that her life, or anyone else's who happens to be at home at the time, is in danger. Our Castle Doctrine covers civil liability to the extent that once your situation is ruled justifiable under Missouri law, it provides an "absolute defense", which basically means that once the court decides that you were within your rights to shoot, nothing else is considered, ruling goes in your favor. That's not the same thing as "shielding" you from anything. You can still be sued in civil court, even if no charged are brought against you criminally; then you have to prove that the incident was legal based on the statutes, at which time the court will rule in your favor and dismiss the suit. They will also automatically award your expenses (attorney, court, etc.) back to you in a civil judgement against the party that brought the suit, but that party would actually have to have money for you to collect it. You will have shelled out some money just to get that far, so any suit will most likely cost you some cash that you won't see back (unless you get sued by rich people).

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    Member Array Orthodoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    A bit OT: How do you like the 3M film? It was recommended by the officer that came and gave our (rural) neighborhood watch talk. Did you apply it yourself? Was it difficult? Can they see in just as easily as you can see out? I have several floor-to-ceiling windows that I thought it might work for.
    It was professionally installed. It does not change appearance of the window. It is not cheap however it does a great job with the demo i have seen. I have it on almost all my first floor, at least those windows that someone could come in through. The demo is great to see, you get to smash a window with a bat. It WILL NOT shatter even with repeated strikes in the same spot. Think of a windshield that was in a car wreck that buckles but you don't get any penetration. Nice stuff if you can stomach the price tag upfront. My price installed was just under 2k for 16 windows/doors that are all around 3 by 7 ft. They do make different "levels" of film that add more toughness and even blast protection but I don't know the cost of those. I am sure the labor varies also. For me it was worth it to slow down a home invasion attempt long enough for my wife to go get a firearm and protect the kids if i am not home (I work late hours at the hospital ) because she is barely gun allowing, and would never allow any guns out of the mini safe while the kids are home so she would need to go get it, meaning she needs a time buffer greater than someone just smashing in the back glass and coming right in

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    Member Array Orthodoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    Orthodoc, you have a reason to be curious. Exactly what you described just happened in Texas. Man shot at an intruder trying to kick in his back door. Police decided not to press charges (I thought not pressing charges against the homeowner would be a given, but apparently it was a decision that had to be made.)

    I linked the story in In the news, but here's the link again: >>>click<<<
    I do have the added benefit that I have taken care of several of the local LEOs injuries and broken bones (I'm a orthopedic surgeon) so maybe I have some "bonus points" saved up if my wife or I were ever involved in a DGU in our home/property that was not grossly questionable (like we shot someone in the back or someting)

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    Member Array Orthodoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by barstoolguru View Post
    shoot through the door if he is trying to make entry. if she is in fear for her life and it's your property

    Okla. Woman Shoots, Kills Intruder: 911 Operators Say It's OK to Shoot - ABC News

    here is one more right from this form:

    Intruder Shot, Injured by Homeowner
    that OK story is what prompted me and my wife to wonder why she didn't just shoot him through the door. If you read the story the OK girl actually waited until he successfully broke in before shooting. That guy was trying for a while to get in and she was on the phone with 911 who would not TELL her it was ok to shoot but said she should "do what she had to do to defend herself and her baby".

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    Quote Originally Posted by TX expat View Post
    First off, if your door is glass, there is really very little chance that she is going to be in the right place at the right time to shoot him before he gains entry; one good kick or a brick or pipe should take the glass out (safety film or not) quite quickly .
    you should check out the video demos of the security film and reconsider that statement.

    3M Window Film Demonstration on Global TV - YouTube ff to 4 min mark or so
    3M Security Window Film - Intruder caught on CCTV - YouTube
    3M Window Protection - YouTube ff to 3:30 or so

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    Orthodoc,
    I see your point. There's really no answer that fits all. Best judgement at the moment. I tell my wife not to give any verbal warning. As soon as deadly force requirements are met... use your weapon to stop the threat. THEN call 911. Best to you and yours, stay safe...
    RIP Jeff Cooper

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