I had a situation

This is a discussion on I had a situation within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I went out last friday night to some nightclubs. To get there i had to walk across my city. I had 4 drinks in 3 ...

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Thread: I had a situation

  1. #1
    Member Array HK45/FN5.7's Avatar
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    I had a situation

    I went out last friday night to some nightclubs. To get there i had
    to walk across my city. I had 4 drinks in 3 hours and decided to
    head home. I thought of grabbing a taxi but it was a nice night out
    so i opted for the 15 min walk back home, it was ~midnite. I am
    carrying my HK and FN in front pockets, locked and cocked.

    So i come apon an area i dont frequent that much and i pass a
    liquor store. Around the corner there are 5 gang bangers. My hand
    slowly slides into my pocket and grips the HK and i slide safety off.
    I try not to eyeball any of them but i dont want to take my eyes
    off them. Instantly one yells "HEY WHITEBOY - COME HERE!" I just
    ignored them. Again "DID YOU ####ING HERE ME MFer!". I turned
    but kept walking and 4 started walking quickly at me, my heart
    starts pounding and time slowed way down. It was like a movie.
    They were about 30 feet away.I looked for a weapon, I could not
    see one. I could see all there hands. I live in PA and the law says I
    have to retreat so i just kept walking and did not say a word still
    watching there hands. One yells "Come here MFer!". I am thinking
    over and over - pull something! pull it!. A few more steps and i
    and turned (they were within 20 feet of me now). One says
    "Dude's got heat!" looking down at my hand in my pocket.
    I said "Dont make me". Same one says "Hey we just want some
    change". I said "********!" and i kept walking. "Bro we just wanted
    some coin". One yells "Fu## that guy!" and one by one they
    turned back to the store yelling insults. I typed in 911 into my phone
    but what if they really just wanted change which i doubt. I got home
    and my hands were shaking for an hour. I came right to the edge.

    So heres my question, at what point could i have drawn and fired?
    Again i saw no weapons, if i did it would have been a no-brainer.
    Also they did not verbally threaten me with death etc.

    Legally in this situation, how far do they have to go for a good shoot?

    I think my body was getting ready to draw by itself, like a natural
    self defense mechanism, it was the strangest feeling.

    Thanks for any advice!

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  3. #2
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    I am not a tactical expert, but I am trying to learn and think about these situations. My only advice is to take the taxi and avoid that sort of area all together. What if you draw and all 5 of them draw, not good. I think you exercised good restraint. They new you had a weapon and it sounds like that for the most part that neutralized the situation. Without it they may have beaten you to an inch of your life or worse

    Take care
    J.S.

  4. #3
    3sh
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    I don't know the PA laws... as to when you could legally shoot. But I would shoot when I felt my life was threatened significantly and there was no other choice.

    Second thing... you carried to a bar or something? If you had shot, I don't think the alcohol in your system would have played well for you.

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    Distinguished Member Array dimmak's Avatar
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    You had been drinking, you should not have been armed....
    "Ray Nagin is a colossal disappointment" - NRA/ILA Executive Director Chris W. Cox.


    "...be water, my friend."

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    tec
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    First thing I would have done is drawn, my cell phone that is, in my left hand and dialed 911, with my right hand staying in my pocket or very close to the pocket. And yea, what about carrying in a place that serves alcohol?
    You did good by not drawing, but you called attention to it as they indicated, which could have led to them calling the police on you.

    Take a taxi next time. Don't tempt trouble.

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    Member Array MJZZZ's Avatar
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    In Kansas, drinking and carrying would cost you your permit. I would have not let them get closer than you did without pulling my gun. I've had double-hip replacement and can no longer run well or fight aggressively. I'll take the heat for showing my gun, rather than having the sheeeiitt kicked out of me and further adding to my disability. Mike Z
    "fundamental principle of American law that a government and its agents are under no general duty to provide public services, such as police protection, to any individual citizen.'' Warren vs District of Columbia

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    Distinguished Member Array SixBravo's Avatar
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    I will say that after drinking, I doubt you would have been legal to shoot at any point. I won't go into chastizing for carrying and havin some drinks.

    Without the drinks, I think that if they kept advancing you would have been okay to draw. If they had kept moving I would look for someplace to discharge a round - grass, dirt, anything that isn't going to ricochet the round. If they were dumb enough to keep moving, I think you would have been okay to fire inside of 10 feet or so. Just make sure that YOU are the one to call 911 afterwards.
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    Gotta agree. drinking and carying are no-no's. whether legal or not, sure doesn't look good in court if you do have to shoot someone. Why carry two guns? Can you shoot with both hands well? If you know the area, why walk thru a questionable area?
    While your story may be true, it sure sounds a bit internet commado.
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    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    I'm a certified Firearms Instructor as are many on this forum. I'll tell you what I tell my CCW students: Alcohol and gun powder NEVER EVER mix! If I'm drinking (which is rarely anyway) I'm NOT carrying. If I'm carrying...zero alcohol. Period.

    IMO, if you'd drawn you'd be looking at an agg assault charge and possibly a lawsuit by those poor misguided chirrun. All your decisions that night screamed reckless endangerment and contributory negligence. You were lucky.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

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    Member Array HK45/FN5.7's Avatar
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    Thanks for the replies, good points on the drinks but i was sober
    walking home, 4 drinks in 3 hours is nothing for me.

    So minus that , lets talk about when someone in that situation
    can fire, it seems like a real gray area.

    Thanks

  12. #11
    Member Array HK45/FN5.7's Avatar
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    >>>Why carry two guns?

    Well main draw would be the .45 w/ cor bon.

    Then either reload or new york reload with the FN. If i see any
    body armor i would pull the FN first.

    Also i like the idea of 2 weapons if i go the ground fighting i
    could pull with either hand. BGs have been tackling from
    behind as they hand out permits easily here.

    regards
    HK

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    Member Array kastiron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HK45/FN5.7 View Post
    >>> BGs have been tackling from
    behind as they hand out permits easily here.

    regards
    HK
    Just out of curiosity, where might the location be that is seeing a rash of crimes from Bad Guys with carry permits? Something is not clear with this, and sounds like a talking point from the Brady campaign. Your location of "Dodge City" also reminds me of what the gun control advocates compare any new CCW friendly city to.

    If I am way off, I do apologize. What brings my comments immediately to mind is an alert recently forwarded to me from the Brady Campaign concerning the 5.7 armor piercing pistol.

    As far as a grey area about when to fire, I don't think the situation above was anywhere near grey, but a very clear no-shoot. I would have to agree with others that drinking while armed is a definite no-go for me. I am over 6' tall and weigh 300lbs and absolutely gave up drinking cold turkey the day I considered taking my first CCW course. In my opinion, ANY amount of alcohol and guns should never mix...

  14. #13
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    Thanks for the replies, good points on the drinks but i was sober
    walking home, 4 drinks in 3 hours is nothing for me.
    You may not think so but a portable breath tester would have shown otherwise.

    So minus that , lets talk about when someone in that situation
    can fire, it seems like a real gray area.
    In your case there was NO gray area. If you had fired at any time, you would have been in the wrong. Being an LEO myself, I can attest to the fact that you would have been fried in a court of law. You may have percieved a threat, but no contact was made, no weapon was seen and they all retreated once they assumed that you were armed. The fact that you felt that you were too drunk to drive would have went against you. Your judgment would have been made into an issue here.

    Fact of the matter is, had you shot, and been required to take a BAC, you would have lost your permit among other things. Verbal assault in any case is NOT a reason to shoot unless a specific threat has been made and the means to carry it out have been seen. In other words, it would have been up to you to articluate to a jury why you felt it neccesary to defend yourself against someone that was just mouthing at you.

    FWIW..
    If you ever do get into a shoot situation, for your sake it had better not be a "gray" area, it had better be as black as the night.Laywers LOVE gray areas and they make a a good living exploiting them.

    Of course this is just my personal opinion and its free. Im not trying to chastise you, I'm just telling you the way it is.
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    ExSoldier...

    Quote Originally Posted by ExSoldier View Post
    I'm a certified Firearms Instructor as are many on this forum. I'll tell you what I tell my CCW students: Alcohol and gun powder NEVER EVER mix! If I'm drinking (which is rarely anyway) I'm NOT carrying. If I'm carrying...zero alcohol. Period.

    IMO, if you'd drawn you'd be looking at an agg assault charge and possibly a lawsuit by those poor misguided chirrun. All your decisions that night screamed reckless endangerment and contributory negligence. You were lucky.
    We both live in Florida, and I agree...alcohol and weapons should not mix. However, in Florida (correct me if I'm wrong), the fact that someone had a drink is not illegal when CCW. If fact, as long as you're not in the bar part of an establishment, one can have a drink with dinner. Another point, "numbers" 2, 3, or 4+ on one could be a reason for self-defense...I'm not looking for an excuse...just noting!

    Respectfully submitted...

    ret
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  16. #15
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    ....so you carried an HK and FN 5.7 (both not the smallest of guns) in your front pockets? In a club? And you were drinking?
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