Suddenly a fistfight broke out and rolled onto the hood of my truck!

This is a discussion on Suddenly a fistfight broke out and rolled onto the hood of my truck! within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; We also have a law that allow Threats as Justifiable Force, which under proper circumstances eliminate brandishing concerns. Not being there, I can't make the ...

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Thread: Suddenly a fistfight broke out and rolled onto the hood of my truck!

  1. #31
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    We also have a law that allow Threats as Justifiable Force, which under proper circumstances eliminate brandishing concerns. Not being there, I can't make the call as to whether or not this incident qualifies, but it is an option for those of us in Texas if needed.

    Sec. 9.04. THREATS AS JUSTIFIABLE FORCE. The threat of force is justified when the use of force is justified by this chapter. For purposes of this section, a threat to cause death or serious bodily injury by the production of a weapon or otherwise, as long as the actor's purpose is limited to creating an apprehension that he will use deadly force if necessary, does not constitute the use of deadly force.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  3. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    We also have a law that allow Threats as Justifiable Force, which under proper circumstances eliminate brandishing concerns. Not being there, I can't make the call as to whether or not this incident qualifies, but it is an option for those of us in Texas if needed.
    Yes, but the "ladies who were fighting" were not directly threatening the OP. They were interested in their own battle.
    There is no indication the fight was a ruse to attack the OP or trick him.
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  4. #33
    Senior Member Array Mattmann's Avatar
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    If my wife and son weren't with me then I would go buy a beer and watch!

  5. #34
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Yes, but the "ladies who were fighting" were not directly threatening the OP. They were interested in their own battle.
    There is no indication the fight was a ruse to attack the OP or trick him.
    I don't know if their actions were close enough or violent enough to cause injury to himself or his children, I wasn't there. However if a violent fight ends up at ones feet, whether it was initially directed at you doesn't mean you wouldn't be included in the violence at some point or be injured as a result of something directed at someone else.

    One can take defensive measures before they are actually injured or become the target of a direct threat.
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    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  6. #35
    Distinguished Member Array kelcarry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    We also have a law that allow Threats as Justifiable Force, which under proper circumstances eliminate brandishing concerns. Not being there, I can't make the call as to whether or not this incident qualifies, but it is an option for those of us in Texas if needed.
    Hey farron: Your reference to Texas law still does not mean that a raving idiot road rage maniac yelling and screaming or even a calm individual who has elevated a seemingly innocent situation and is now pointing his firearm is a legal maneuver. There is a big difference, IMO, to the intent of the law you reference , which is to allow someone who is under some realistic presumption of imminent danger to attempt that initial movement with a firearm. Seems to me if you do this you had better have a darn good presumption of imminent danger and are prepared to go to the next step. As I have said in replies, you show your firearm that way you are now the potential BG to the other person and if that other person should be better at this than you, you will die--witnesses will be clear---you drew your firearm and threatened the other guy--a good and righteous shooting.

  7. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by paramedic70002 View Post
    About 10 seconds.
    So what you are saying is it goes something like this......

    What are they doing?
    Fight!
    Kids!
    Pepper spray, check.
    Handgun, check.
    Kids!
    Over.
    Call the cops.

    Pretty much what I figured. As I said, prepare for the worst, hope for the best. Glad it worked out.

    Pretty much the only thing I see making a difference in a situation like this is deciding what you might do ahead of time. Because even though your brain goes into overdrive in the moment, there is just not much time to make long, drawn out what if decisions. You've probably barely got time to act on instinct.
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  8. #37
    Distinguished Member Array Tally XD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelcarry View Post
    Really? Since when, if you consider brandishing the pointing of a firearm at someone because you are a raving, irresponsible maniac who cannot control himself, a legal form of anything? Open carry means open carry in a holster, not open carry in your hand and waving it around as you try to make your point about some senseless road rage or whatever rage. As I said before, if this is legal and you do it to me in Florida, I will presume imminent danger of death and you will suffer the consequences.
    Using a weapon, even just as a deterrent, if your life is threatened is not brandishing. Here is the Florida definition of brandishing:

    790.10Improper exhibition of dangerous weapons or firearms.—If any person having or carrying any dirk, sword, sword cane, firearm, electric weapon or device, or other weapon shall, in the presence of one or more persons, exhibit the same in a rude, careless, angry, or threatening manner, not in necessary self-defense, the person so offending shall be guilty of a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.
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  9. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelcarry View Post
    Hey farron: Your reference to Texas law still does not mean that a raving idiot road rage maniac yelling and screaming or even a calm individual who has elevated a seemingly innocent situation and is now pointing his firearm is a legal maneuver. There is a big difference, IMO, to the intent of the law you reference , which is to allow someone who is under some realistic presumption of imminent danger to attempt that initial movement with a firearm. Seems to me if you do this you had better have a darn good presumption of imminent danger and are prepared to go to the next step. As I have said in replies, you show your firearm that way you are now the potential BG to the other person and if that other person should be better at this than you, you will die--witnesses will be clear---you drew your firearm and threatened the other guy--a good and righteous shooting.
    And no one has presented this situation anywhere in this thread. Stop elevating ad presuming things that haven't happened.
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  10. #39
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelcarry View Post
    Hey farron: Your reference to Texas law still does not mean that a raving idiot road rage maniac yelling and screaming or even a calm individual who has elevated a seemingly innocent situation and is now pointing his firearm is a legal maneuver. There is a big difference, IMO, to the intent of the law you reference , which is to allow someone who is under some realistic presumption of imminent danger to attempt that initial movement with a firearm. Seems to me if you do this you had better have a darn good presumption of imminent danger and are prepared to go to the next step. As I have said in replies, you show your firearm that way you are now the potential BG to the other person and if that other person should be better at this than you, you will die--witnesses will be clear---you drew your firearm and threatened the other guy--a good and righteous shooting.
    I never said you could draw or present a weapon in a willy nilly fashion. If you read and understood the post I made, especially "under proper circumstances" you would have gotten that. Disorderly conduct in Texas is the charge that covers "brandishing" firearms or weapons or other offensive actions. IMO the OP was not engaging in disorderly conduct.

    In this scenario, the OP was doing nothing but preparing for defensive action against persons who were acting in a manner that very soon could have included himself and his children.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  11. #40
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    Just my two cents here, and I am not trying to beat you up or second guess you. Everything turned out Ok int he end and that is the most important thing.

    But, I would have done some thing very differently than you. First off, if I had my kids with me and they were young enough that I had to help buckle them into the car as you stated you were doing, I darn sure wouldn't have interjected in any way. You said you exposed your gun and placed your hand on it and got your pepper spray ready. What if one of the parties not actually fighting had had a gun as well and took your actions as the opening bell for a gun fight? You are now being fired at while your kids are behind you int he truck. No way that is a good situation. What if all the other parties turn on you and decide to beat you?

    Did you know either of the parties fighting? If not, who cares what it was about or who was winning? I jump in the drivers seat and we leave. Simple as that. I don't care if they are rolling around on my hood or not, I'm still leaving. If they want to ride for a few yards that's fine. But I'm getting my children out of there.

    There are a few situations where I might get involved. Like a child being abducted. Or a woman being attacked out of the blue and obviously trying to be kidnapped or raped. Other than that, if I don't know someone, I really don't care what they did to warrant a beating being put on them. It's not my concern. My main goal if to return home to my family safe and sound and to protect them.

    Bottom line, unless they had tried to get into my truck, I wouldn't have interjected at all. Really, how badly could they have damaged a truck you described as rejected by Sanford and Son.
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  12. #41
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    They'd have to have step ladders to roll across the hood of my truck. They might roll under it, but not over it.
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  13. #42
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    It didnt' happen to me, I wasn't there, so I dont' really know. Ultimately, it ended for you successfully (no arrest, no bullet holes, kids okay).
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  14. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by TN_Mike View Post
    You said you exposed your gun and placed your hand on it and got your pepper spray ready. What if one of the parties not actually fighting had had a gun as well and took your actions as the opening bell for a gun fight?
    Please re-read my original and clarifying posts. I did NOT put my hand on my gun. I simply switched from CC to OC while the fight was progressing. No one in the group, which I had been aware of for about three minutes, was in a position to see that action. The fight rapidly moved to within a few feet of my driver side door, then stalled. I'm too fat to crawl over two kids and a booster seat in a 1990 F150. Perhaps I'll go back down there and take a picture of the scene, since I am apparently unable to adequately describe it.
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  15. #44
    Distinguished Member Array Tally XD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paramedic70002 View Post
    Please re-read my original and clarifying posts. I did NOT put my hand on my gun. I simply switched from CC to OC while the fight was progressing. No one in the group, which I had been aware of for about three minutes, was in a position to see that action. The fight rapidly moved to within a few feet of my driver side door, then stalled. I'm too fat to crawl over two kids and a booster seat in a 1990 F150. Perhaps I'll go back down there and take a picture of the scene, since I am apparently unable to adequately describe it.
    I wouldn't let anything worry you over this. You did the right thing, you were prepared to have to use deadly force if needed. It wasn't, you never pulled the gun and all ended well in the end.

    If we are not allowed to prepare ourselves to use our weapons for self defense then what is the purpose of having them on our side to begin with?

    Preparing to use a weapon is not brandishing. Putting your hand on the weapon to get a proper grip is not brandishing. Unholstering, if threatened, is not brandishing.
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  16. #45
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    I don't see anything wrong with your actions. Having pepper spray ready is not escalating even if you had been seen and OC is legal so why not improve access if thing go south.

    My only thought for your consideration. In this situation I stop trying to buckle the kids in, just get them in the vehicle anywhere even on the floor and close the door so I know they are as protected as possible. If the option to jump in and leave presents itself I am gone and will stop a mile up the road the get the buckling and such done. I know that in 10 seconds plus say another 20-30 seconds that the escalation occurred it seems fast but to me securing the kids inside a closed vehicle only takes 5 seconds.

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