PA - Multiple unarmed attackers

This is a discussion on PA - Multiple unarmed attackers within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Guys sorry about that thread yesterday, let me try again. Hypothetical situation: A GG CCH is walking down the street and approached by 2 or ...

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Thread: PA - Multiple unarmed attackers

  1. #1
    Member Array HK45/FN5.7's Avatar
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    PA - Multiple unarmed attackers

    Guys sorry about that thread yesterday, let me try again.

    Hypothetical situation: A GG CCH is walking down the street and
    approached by 2 or more BGs (no weapons showing) and attack
    the GG lets say with punches whatever. At what point can GG fire?

    Now in PA law it says you can defend yourself when its a disparity of
    force, like multiple attackers, but at WHAT POINT OF THE ATTACK
    can i draw???? Thats my gray area.

    I talked to a LEO today about this specifically, he told it would be
    gray area for him also. I asked him over and over and finally he
    he said "just hope they pull a weapon, bat, pen, chopsticks" and
    then he ditched me. lol

    I got everything black and white, its just this situation thats gnawing
    at me.

    Thanks, appreciate
    HK/FN

    PS thanks for the comments last night, i will not drink again carrying
    but there are no laws against in PA that i can find. You can carry in a
    bar legally. But you are right, a lib lawyer would have a field day
    with that.

    I will continue to carry in nightclubs, this is probably the place I
    will need it the most. Always shootings etc. and these are clean
    college type places.

    PSS i am not brady troll, libs are slime in my book

    also i carry in pocket w/ no holster, they are good sized pistols,
    I keep my wallet in front of the HK to keep it from printing, its
    kinda boxy, The FN is super light and holds 21. I looked at holsters
    but i think anyone who needs to reach for there weapon is in dire
    straights if they need to reach for it after the BG gets the drop on
    them. With pocket carry i can walk with my hand on my weapon
    and draw instantly. So worse case BG gets the drop on me I have
    a chance to take the shot, i can draw very quickly and hopefully
    put the drop back on him. I realize i will probably get shot but
    i'll accept that as long as mine goes "bang" first. I didnt want to
    end up in a rest home anyways.

    and when i was talking about BGs tackling, i meant that the BGs
    undersand alot of people carry here and tackle to remove the threat.
    I didnt mean the BGs had CCPs.

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  3. #2
    Member Array RobL's Avatar
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    "I will continue to carry in nightclubs, this is probably the place I
    will need it the most.":
    If you don't need to be there, why are you there?
    simplyrugged.com

    Get Trained Go Armed.

    “Victory at all costs, victory in spite of all terror, victory however long and hard the road may be; for without victory there is no survival.”
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    Member Array gotammo's Avatar
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    With all things when you feel that the only way to prevent serious bodily harm or death to yourself or others is to use deadly force. Now what kind of BG are you dealing with 2 or 3 16 yr olds are different from 2 or 3 weight lifting giants. SA and cover are perfered to shots fired. The reason the officer could not give specifics other than not wanting to have any responsiblity (because he said you could) in the event something ever happens is there are far to many variables to count, what is a good shoot in instance is not in another.

  5. #4
    Member Array HK45/FN5.7's Avatar
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    I feel that someone striking me could possibly take my life (law
    makers dont agree) as the initial shot to my head may not kill
    me but if i am knocked out/down the body tends to create a
    whipping action where the head ends up being the end of the whip
    and your head strikes the ground very very hard.

    In regards to size I have done years of boxing/muay thai and some
    ground work, i can tell you size means nothing. I would rather face
    a weightlifter than a slender street fighter anyday. And 2 16 year
    old fighters could dispatch someone very quickly.

  6. #5
    Member Array HK45/FN5.7's Avatar
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    >>>If you don't need to be there, why are you there?

    Well, 3 reasons, girls, females and of course girls

  7. #6
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    There is no black and white answer to your question. Every situation is different and each has its own nuances. If you use deadly force it will be investigated by the police and the prosecutor will get to determine if you will be charged. Each prosecutor is different. Talking to LEOs isn't going to get you much other then their opinion. Talk to judges, prosecutors and defense attorneys. These are the folks who will be deciding your fate should you use deadly force.

    Concealed carry is a lifestyle, one with huge responsibilities. Legal or not I do not frequent places where alcohol is being consumed while I am carrying as these are places where people are getting stupid. I don't want some stupid person to determine the rest of my life. Even if you survive an attack, and are not found guilty of a crime, you can expect to not only be bankrupt, but in debt for a very long time. That is just from the lawyers you will need to hire, not counting any potential civil judgement someone may get against you.

    A nightlife environment tends to mean people. In defensive shooting situations expert shooters miss 50% of the time. Those bullets will stop somewhere. Given a lot of people and a minimum 50% miss rate you are going to be accountable for a lot of bullets if you are forced into a shooting situation at a night club or other such venue. Given you have chosen the 5.7 overpenetration will be huge. So people that get behind thin walls or tables when you start shooting are all still potential victims. Even from your previous post, some of your bullets could wind up in the store,where there is at least a clerk and possibly customers.

    I won't even begin to address how you carry. I'll just say consider some changes.
    Procrastinators are the leaders of tomorrow.

  8. #7
    Member Array rvacoastie's Avatar
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    As far as being trained in mout tai and boxing I think it would have to be very extenuating circumstances for you to draw down on and fire at an unarmed subject. A good prosecuter is going to tell the jury that you are a trained fighter...

  9. #8
    Member Array Leadslinger's Avatar
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    (of course there is NO perfect answer)
    To me ... When you feel like you have lost any control of the situation, I.E. Knocked o the ground etc. and you have a genuine fear that you may be killed or seriously injuried.
    You must remember too , that if the BGs intent is to rob you, then they are more than likely find your gun(s) and possibly use it(them) against you.

    The reason "everyone" got on your case is this :

    #1 Not only is mixing alcohol and guns dumb, it will go against you in court. & carrying in a Club is looking for trouble. If you are expecting that much trouble, then that's a place not to go. Your post sounded very irresponsible.

    Enough of that, back to the question.

    You must take into alot of variables in a self defense situation.
    Another issue a lawyer might bring up is .. If you do have a background in Martial Arts etc... Why could you not defend yourself etc. Why did you not call the police immediately ? Why ? WHy ? Why? and you are going to have to answer these questions.

    You have chosen to carry a weapon for self defense and that's great. Now be adult about the responsibility.

    "When I was a child, I acted like a child, Played like a child, But
    When I became a Man, I put away those childish ways."

    Good Luck.


    A LTTLE TRAINING IS A DANGEROUS THING ....

  10. #9
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    Post

    OK...this thread is presented in a much more decent fashion.
    Please try to keep the comments somewhat related to the questions asked by the member.

    PA First Obligation To Retreat Deady Peril.

    In PA you must feel that your life is in imminent deadly danger.
    You must have attempted to exit the scenario.
    It's called a first obligation to retreat.

    If there is no possible way for you to escape the confrontation (AKA get away from the Bad Guys) then you may use deadly force to save your life.

    It will always be a gray area since each confrontation will be a unique scenario.

    Here is the reality of the situation:

    Any time you draw and fire your defensive firearm Guaranteed there will be a forthcoming police investigation.

    Even if you are legally carrying a concealed firearm in PA and if you are involved in a deadly confrontation where you fatally shoot any other human being you WILL be involved in a Homicide Investigation.

    The shooting will treated exactly as a Murder Investigation (with you as the chief suspect) until such time as the shooting is deemed justified and you are cleared as a murder suspect.

    Expect your life to be totally turned upside down.

    You will be blood tested for alcohol & drugs.

    Expect your carry firearm to be seized.

    Expect your life to be throughly investigated in order to make certain that you have no hidden/unknown personal ties or possible connections to the victim/victims.

    Expect a likely Civil Action from the victims family.

    Expect it all to cost you a minimum of 5 grand in attorney fees.

  11. #10
    Member Array HK45/FN5.7's Avatar
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    Thanks all, i'll be back tomoro, HK/FN

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    VIP Member Array Ti Carry's Avatar
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    HK/FN

    To answer your question about your experience with several thugs that were potentially there to cause you harm we would have to know the law's of your state. I don't live in your state, but In Missouri if you are being ganged up on/attacked by several individuals that you believe are wanting to rob and harm you, you have every right to defend yourself.

    Now to my questions!

    1) Is it possible that we can see both your carry weapons via a picture or two that "you" have taken or can take and not one off of the HK or FN websites or others off the Internet?

    2) I am curious as to how you can carry these particular handguns in both front pockets at the same time.
    I would like to see a picture of that as well.

    If you need help posting pictures I am sure one of the mod's could help you with that.

    I live in the "Show ME State" (Missouri) so I have to see to believe!


    Ti.
    Train and train hard, you might not get a second chance to make a first impression!

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    Distinguished Member Array lowflyer's Avatar
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    It's important to keep in mind that good ol' fashioned asswhuppin' does not a life-threatening situation make. If you draw, you should have first made darn sure that you will be able to paint a gruesome picture for the investigators as to the possible outcome if you had not had a weapon. The kicker here is that you will have a fraction of a second to make a decision that could be scrutinized by teams of LEOs, investigators, the media, and lawyers for hundreds if not thousands of man-hours over weeks and months. If you kill, they can even dig it up and re-investigate it years into the future.

    Also, some may disagree, but my policy is not to draw unless I have made my mind up to KILL. I will never brandish, hesitate, show, or otherwise threaten with my gun so long as I can reasonably avoid it. My plan is to stay completely concealed until I am relatively certain that all possibilities for avoiding my own death or the death of another have been exhausted. Once that determination has been made, I will draw and fire until the threat has stopped. I pray everyday that I never have to prove to myself that this is the way I will act if confronted with a real BG. At least that's my plan.
    Whatever doesn't kill you postpones the inevitable.

  14. #13
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    Escalating A Situation

    In Pennsylvania you must not escalate any confrontation.

    In other words...you must not help to create the situation that you then are subsequently forced to defend yourself against with deadly force.

    You must not escalate, provoke, or "make worse" an argument while armed or goad a person/persons into attacking you.

  15. #14
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    Thx for your as usual good input for PA QK - covers much very nicely

    Saved me a ton of typing
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


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  16. #15
    Distinguished Member Array lowflyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QKShooter View Post
    In Pennsylvania you must not escalate any confrontation.

    In other words...you must not help to create the situation that you then are subsequently forced to defend yourself against with deadly force.

    You must not escalate, provoke, or "make worse" an argument while armed or goad a person/persons into attacking you.
    Should be pretty much true everywhere. Some places even put the onus on the attackee to retreat. Luckily, that's not the case in KS.
    Whatever doesn't kill you postpones the inevitable.

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